Just saying if the government had a hand in dealing a death blow to US companies with the CAFE standards, regardess of the union issue, and then in addition let the bank run rampant, seems to me they needed to take some responsibility for fixing the mess. Of course the government is us and we put these bozos in office for a variety of reasons, so we all share in the shame.
Ah, “Bean Counters vs. Car Guys” by Bob Lutz. He’s a little full of himself but interesting and insightful. Ioccoca also has interesting things to say about the auto business and government.
Dag, the government is also not a money tree. I know we’ve had this debate before, but I contend that it is not the purpose taxation to be bailing out private companies. I know it was necessary for agriculture during the dust bowl days, but it’s way, way out of control. I contend that both the bailout and the cash-4-clunkers handout were inappropriate uses of billions of our tax dollars. I believe they were blatent attempts to capture (buy) the union votes.
And yet the government refused to authorize the funds for the “missing man” flyover at Pearl Harbor on December 7th to honor the WWII dead, the first time the flyover has been denied since it was begun many years ago. When I heard that my blood boiled.
The reason I started the thread is because I kept hearing people say that GM paid us back, and that we made money on the deal, or that we didn’t lose money on the bailout. We lost a bundle. And it was OUR money! Money that should have been kept in the public coffers to reduce the deficit, buy military equipment, pay for military training, honor the WWII veterans, and other things that keep out country strong.
“the government refused to authorize the funds for the “missing man” flyover at Pearl Harbor on December 7th to honor the WWII dead, the first time the flyover has been denied since it was begun many years ago.”
I agree that this is a shame, MB, but you can blame the Sequestration legislation for this situation. The omission of this ceremony never took place previously, but…we never previously had a sequestering of federal funds, which is severely strangling many government operations.
I know. The BCA enacting the sequestration default action was only passed in 2011. It’s a newbie.
You do realize that the sequester default kicked in because Obama refused to come to the table unless expenditures for enacting Obamacare were totally exempted from the budget discussion?
I didn’t know they canceled the flyover. That’s a kick in the teeth. I’m ashamed.
Anyone that cannot trim a measly 5% out of the federal budget has no business being in government. No money for a flyover or white house tours but a million a pop to bomb Syria? $630 million for a dysfunctional website that several experts said should be in the $6 million range and that IBM offered to build for nothing but was refused. 13,000 new IRS agents, and on and on. Its just a matter of priorities not a shortage of money.
“You do realize that the sequester default kicked in because Obama refused to come to the table unless expenditures for enacting Obamacare were totally exempted from the budget discussion?”
All this time I thought sequestration occurred because our elected representatives, all of them, couldn’t negotiate a deal that most of them could tolerate. Not like, but tolerate. BTW, you do realize that many Republican budget hawks were happy enough with expenditure cuts of any type that they willingly accepted sequestration.
@Same
Just so you get that bailouts have been occurring and the govt. is not in business to make money but to maintain a corporate base both for the good of those employed and the good of the populace in general, please look at the reference. You can argue that bailing out specifically GM should not have been done, but to say that the govt. should not bail out any private enterprise flys in the face of what has been done for a long time. Was it just as bad to have Bush bail out the banks or are we just picking on Obama ? Remember, Bush signed TARP into law as a mechanism to release funds to the bank. They were committed under the Bush administration but show up as a debt under Obama. How much money was lost by bailing out the banks vs bailing out the autos ? Not even close. Yet, the alternative is never considered by those who are not employed by the auto industry or live in communities directly affected.
It’s fine to just say…we never should have do it. But the alternative was potentially catastrophic in a time when unemployment due to the recession was already taking a heavy toll. I submit that the same people who don’t go for this or any bailout, don’t believe in universal healthcare either, even though it is the most cost effective way of bringing down our national debt. http://www.propublica.org/special/government-bailouts
Having been in the military and driven and seen a gazillion GM vehicles and those with GM power plants, I feel the auto industry is of STATEGIC interest to our national security and should remain in tact. We might as well have called it defense spending.
Let’s be assured of one thing. The sequestration would never occur if we had a rational approach to passing the budget by the House of Representatives. The fault for delaying any buget, the sequestration, the jobs bill, the almost shutdown…,rest with the ineptitude of the house. That includes funds for the flyover. The tea party whose strength has been secured by redistricting is primarily responsible for your personal anguish over funding reasonable service recognition tributes. Using terms like “the Feds” does not hide who has been responsible for our recession and our slow recovery. It’s the austerity mind set that thwarts investment and rewards backward thinking. And, it now rests in the house. To blame a bailout of such small comparative consequence as a reason for loss of this recognition is to deny the real causes. Sorry @Same. We agree on just about everything, till it comes to politics…and this IS about politics more than automobiles.
You can argue that bailing out specifically GM should not have been done, but to say that the govt. should not bail out any private enterprise flys in the face of what has been done for a long time. Was it just as bad to have Bush bail out the banks or are we just picking on Obama ?
Yup…And because we did it once we’ll do it again. There are many companies that are too big to fail. And unless we do let them fail we’re going to keep doing this over and over and over again. You say that it would be bad for the economy…well I think this slow death we’ve now set up is much much much worse. Because we’re going to get into the same situation…and we (the Government) won’t have the funds to bail them out. We had close to 30% unemployment in the Great Depression…If the above scenario happens…then expect 40-50% unemployment…and there won’t be government funds for food lines or other emergency government assistance.
Yup…we do it all the time…and should continue to when it meets sertainly criteria. If companies are too big to fail, they should be broken up into smaller entities. There would be too much pain and suffering for the middle class and the working poor if they failed. That’s not alright with me.
Quick, name me a country that became third world by exhibiting compassion for it’s own citizens and those in need world wide. The slippery slope for bailouts is a Faux idiom.
Slippery slope till you are the one in need. Third world countries are just the opposite. There is no central govt. to look after the individual rights. There is no FEMA, there are no small business loans and there is no Medicare. All of these ventures are bailouts on other levels, but bailouts still. That’s what separates us from the third world. Collective empathy for those in need. It is the social in social security. It’s our RedCross ( and other institutions) and our collective central government might that allows us to help third world countries. We know a country is successful when it does bail out the less fortunate.
Quick, name me a country that became third world by exhibiting compassion for it's own citizens and those in need world wide. The slippery slope for bailouts is a Faux idiom.
Take a look around…we’re getting there.
So the US will be #1 again…at becoming the first superpower to become a third world country. Just because it hasn’t happened yet…doesn’t mean it CAN’T.
I don’t see how we can maintain this debt and keep piling it on year after year. You say it’s NOT a problem…Sorry I don’t agree. We should keep bailing out ANY company that is so big to fail.
Gerald Celente certainly doesnt believe companies with poor policies should be bailed,IMO He believes businesses should be allowed to fail,because the Mega corps shouldnt have any advantages in purchasing large amounts,they should pay the same.maybe Mom&Pop could have a chance then,the way things are structured now,we will certainly go down the tubes its about parity not unfair advantages.
GM could have been broken up,some parts would have survived,GM trucks eg;
It really bugs me when I see thousands& thousands of dollars worth of military equipment being hauled up and down the interstates(we are the only country that really can afford that(or at least thinks it can).So smoking mirrors will always prevail,those with the Gold,makes the rules-Kevin
Dag, you made an excellent point about investment in GM being in the interest of national security, however that wasn’t what the bailout was about. Military equipment divisions can and should be targeted for specific expenditures to keep them afloat if necessary, but there are separate divisions and this should not be confused with the bailout goals. And it needs to be necessary.
I also recognize that we’ve been bailing out privately owned companies for decades. I maintain that it’s an inappropriate use of tax dollars. In this case, unprecedented amounts. And in this case, the Cash4Clunkers was clearly unprecedented and an appalling waste of billions of our tax dollars.
I’ll end with the comment that at least nobody can now claim that GM paid us back, or that we broke even or didn’t lose money on the deal. It cost us an enormous amount of money. Money that should have been available to reduce the deficit and/or invest in the military. That is what taxation is supposed to be for. Not bailing out companies to get union votes.
I have all the respect in the world for you, Dag, and for others who disagree on principle. And you make compelling arguments. But I’ll continue to believe as I do.
^
And I will continue to believe as I do.
While we can agree on almost everything automotive, clearly we will never be in full agreement on things of a political nature.
However, one of the wonderful things about our great nation is that we can have dialogues including criticism of the government without fear of being arrested for expressing our opinions. That–ultimately–is one of the most significant things that distinguishes us from many other powerful nations.
@VDCdriver I agree. When I work overseas, in some countries, the only criticism I get from locals about their own government is on a “one on one” basis outside of hearing range.
As a consultant I have to tread the straight and narrow with constructive criticism. When a course of action is recommended it is often in the form of " you can do even better by doing this".
@MikeInNh http://www.nationsonline.org/oneworld/third_world.htm
Please look at these countries nd tell me how close we are getting.
Tell me too how many started out as a democracy, showed compassion for itself and it’s neighbors, them fell into third world status. This is just an idea, thought up by the wealthy that has no basis in fact. They want you to believe that the working poor are corrupt and anything we do as a central govt. to help others is better spent giving them subsidies. We measure how advanced societies are by the compassion they show those who need help, not to those who just want more.
They want you to believe that the working poor are corrupt and anything we do as a central govt. to help others is better spent giving them subsidies. We measure how advanced societies are by the compassion they show those who need help, not to those who just want more.
Don’t bunch me with those wacko’s. You are the extreme left and they are to the extreme right.
Go on believing what you want. We can’t keep giving BILLIONS of dollars away because it MAY fix a problem. GM screwed up…PERIOD…We saved their butt…Let’s just keep putting money into companies because their management is too stupid to run the company correctly. Yup…makes sense to me.