VW specifies lifetime transmission fluid, but the supplier, ZF calls for 60,000 mile fluid changes. Who do you believe?
I dunno, but probably not the one wanting to sell me more fluid.
BTW, your warranty is up before the first 60,000 mile fluid change.
True, but I’m perfectly willing to gamble that my car will be a rusty clunker (probably someone else’s) with multiple problems long before unchanged trans fluid ever bites me in the ass.
Now, if I were to notice that the stuff looked dirty on the dipstick (which I almost never check) then I would consider replacement, especially with lotsa mileage. I wouldn’t necessarily expect it to do much good though.
Well mountainbike, many automatics do come to need clutches (and all else that goes into a rebuild). I’m glad you’ve never had to deal with a faulty automatic. But many have including myself. And I’ll take the $500-800 clutch job over the $2000-5000 automatic trans rebuild anytime. (On top of that, I can do a clutch myself, but not rebuild an automatic so the $$ difference is that much larger). That’s all I’m saying.
@auto-owner, faulty automatics these days are just as likely as anything else to send a car to scrap these days. People obsess about oil changes for the engine and ignore auto transmission fluid. But the fact is that a bad auto transmission problem these days will kill a car just as fast or faster than an engine problem.
People obsess about oil changes for the engine and ignore auto transmission fluid. But the fact is that a bad auto transmission problem these days will kill a car just as fast or faster than an engine problem.
Hokay, but I wonder how many of those problems can be blamed on unchanged fluid?
interesting question - couple points I don’t think I have read in the comments:
I am aware that not all automatic transmissions are designed equally - for instance, I remember hearing about this one:
(I’ll not copy/paste Wikipedia’s entries on the subject though)
another comment : the driving style of individuals who want a manual transmission (a special item nowadays) are considerably different than those who want (or merely accept) an automatic. This will have consequences on the wear, I think, however, apples (i.e. specific transmissions) must be compared with apples.
another comment, drivers who know the difference in automatic transmissions might rather buy an automatic transmission that will have certain strengths over others, again with consequences.
“Hokay, but I wonder how many of those problems can be blamed on unchanged fluid?”
Talk to people who rebuild transmissions for a living. They will tell you - a huge number or even MOST.
I have no idea why anyone would doubt that keeping the fluid fresh and clean rather than old and dirty isn’t crucial. An auto is not just a bunch of gears in a box.
Good comments. I think @BustedKnuckles and others make a key point, that clutches are by definition wearing items and eventually need replacement. Gears, not so much. And that automatics have their multiple clutches inside the transmission, and manuals have just a single clutch, which is relatively easy to replace since it is on the outside.
Another good way to ruin an automatic is to change the fluid- and use the wrong fluid. There is no such thing as “universal ATF.” A lot of those famous Chrysler minivan transmission failures can be traced to that factor.
With all the different types of fluid used in automatics these days, I can see how it could confuse folks and the wrong type get put in sometimes. I wonder if this is part of the reason why manufacturers are not putting transmission filler tube/dipsticks on their vehicles any more.
I have no idea why anyone would doubt that keeping the fluid fresh and clean rather than old and dirty isn’t crucial.
Me neither. I said I’d consider replacement if I saw dirty ATF on the dipstick. But, again, I’ve no reason to think a manufacturer is wrong in recommending no replenishment.
auto-owner, "I said I’d consider replacement if I saw dirty ATF on the dipstick. But, again, I’ve no reason to think a manufacturer is wrong in recommending no replenishment. "
Next time you check it, have a white piece of plastic handy. Put a drop of your trans fluid on it. Next to that put a drop of new trans fluid. What you might have thought looked clean will now look dirty. And dirt is only one part of the issue.
Manufacturers have a direct interest in (among other things): a) advertising low maintenance, and b) getting the thing past the warranty period. People who always lease or trade-in before or at warranty’s end will normally be fine. But that doesn’t work for those who want to maximize the life of the car. Transmission rebuilders everywhere know that most manufacturer recommendations on trans fluid are bad ones.
I have always been an advocate of fresh fluids and filters (or clean filters) in all things mechanical. The reality is, however, that most people with automatic trannys neglect them. And, yet, the percentage that di fail is surprisingly small. They truly are tolerant of our human frailties. Most of the automatic transmissions failures that I’ve seen have been in vehicles known for failing transmissions. Nothing, not even good maintenance, can create reliability in a bad design.
Cig, I actually prefer manuals myself, but my point was that manuals can be expected to need a new clutch occasionally, and an automatic transmission should not come with an expectation of needing an occasional rebuild. A few manufacturers have produced some less-than-robust automatic transmission designs over the years, but most are downright reliable for the life of the vehicle.
Get a manual and you know you’ll need a new clutch every now and again.
Get a new automatic and other than scheduled servicing you should not expect to have major work done every now and again.
Mountainbike, I think every automatic should be purchased with the assumption that it will fail - earlier than the engine. I don’t think it is as rare as you imply, either on a vehicle to vehicle basis or on a problematic model basis.
The “life of the vehicle” remark is pretty ambiguous. Many times it is a transmission failure that DOES determine the life of the vehicle. So yeah - in some respects most automatics last the “life of the vehicle” - by definition.
I think that my own thoughts on it do reflect some past frustrations with auto trans issues. The difficulty of dealing with it is truly daunting if you don’t have excellent trans techs to go to - and I don’t. Trust me I’ve tried.
A new clutch in a manual? That costs about as much as a set of tires. I just don’t even think of it as an issue. Its a wear and tear item like all the rest.
BTW: there are currently 3 cars in my driveway and all are automatics, but not by choice! It’s harder and harder to find manuals (partly b/c I buy used so there’s a lot to balance beyond just holding out for a manual).
Cig, I think we’re going to respectfully disagree on this one. If I had to buy my automatic with the assumption that it would fail before the life of the car, I’d buy a different brand next time. One with a better reliability record. I’ve owned automatics in the past, and I’ve never had one fail.
My current car is an automatic only in deference to my degenerative disc disease. Driving a clutch can be nearly impossible when I’m in severe pain. The hip and leg movement can be hard to deal with. Even with the automatic I use cruise control as much as possible to relieve the pressure on my right foot.
We managed 194,000 miles at least on the Mazda Protoge and when we donated it to the local community college it still had the original clutch. The Automatic on our '88 grand voyager was rebuilt at around 80,000 miles and we were luckier than others in only having to do it once. Keep in mind we stopped driving the van on long trips due to it always having something break on the way back. My aunt made it 240,000 miles with her CRX HF on the original clutch(1988) before the rust took hold of the car.
A properly maintained automatic can last a long time. I know, because I currently just rolled over 250,000 miles on my Ford Explorer with the 5R55E transmission that some rebuilders claim to see a lot of around the 135,000 mile mark. Mine gets a pan drop, filter change, and fluid fill every 30,000. Oil is cheaper than a rebuild.
But, I’ve also seen a lot of troubled transmissions. First thing I do is look at the color and condition of the fluid. A lot of times, I see fluid that looks pale or orangey with dark residue on the dipstick. I ask when the fluid was last changed, and usually get a deer-in-the-headlights look of someone who never thought to get the transmission serviced.