Engine pinging

I have used Top Tier, no difference. I am also adding additives every tank now. Tried Gumout in the first tank, now Seafoam in this tank.

Most probably an L-Series. :upside_down_face:

I had pinging on my 1984 Chevy Cavalier under conditions like yours. I put Marvel Mystery Oil in the gas for a while and the problem went away. I think there were carbon deposits in the combustion chambers and the MMO and driving softened and expelled them.

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Alright! Forget all that non sense I wrote above. The engine works just as good, if not better than when I had the 91 octane in. Plenty of power and I donā€™t hear any pinging. Thank you all for the help! :grin:

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I donā€™t think you wrote any nonsense but what did yo do to fix it. Did you remove the intake manifold?

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I didnā€™t remove the manifold. I just skipped it cuz the Seafoam seemed to do the trick.

Today, I replaced the thermostat and the idle is where it should be but the pinging is back. Not as BAD as before though. The vehicle is idling smooth and running way better than before and I am thinking maybe I should do the Seafoam treatment again. Seems like one can was not enough.

Before replacing the thermostat the temperature needle would always sit a bit under 1/4. The idle was always high and my gas mileage was terrible.

The temps only rise above 1/4 when it is really hot outside and I am stuck on traffic. If the needle reaches 1/2 it would start pinging under light acceleration.

So the trend before thermostat replacement was:
If it needle rises above 1/4 or sits under 3/8 it will ping under heavy acceleration. If the needle reaches 1/2 it will ping under light acceleration.

Now after thermostat replacement:
If the needle reaches 1/2 it will ping lightly under heavy acceleration.

Have you ever changed the plugs and plug wires?

Do another Seafoam treatment.

Sometimes it takes more than one.

Tester

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Yep. plugs and wires.

Will do :slightly_smiling_face:

Good for you that the decarbonizing method worked. Pinging can also occur if the spark plug gap is wider than specified. Since that is a such simple thing to check, thatā€™s usually where I start w/this problem. The EGR function on OBD II engines is carefully monitored by the engine computer, so if that were the problem a diagnostic code would usually be set. Even my OBD I Corolla monitors the EGR function.

Perhaps it might help you to know what real engine ā€œpingingā€ actually isā€¦ If you already know, ignore me, most do anyway, so Im ok with it.

True engine Pingā€¦ is Pre-detonation and this, my friend, is No Bueno. Pre Det is caused by the intake charge of air and fuel igniting Prior to the piston reaching TDC. This is in effect working directly against your engine and all of its rotating internal components predominantly the pistons and con rods, crank, etc.

The intake charge needs to ignite after and or very close to TDC of the pistons strokeā€¦so that the power generated and forced upon the piston head is turned into useable crankshaft rotation. If it occurs early it literally is trying to blow the piston back downā€¦WHILE it is still travelling upwardā€¦which is a horrific scenario if you were to be, say, a piston and con rodā€¦ No Bueno.

Pre Det has many causesā€¦ As Tester mentioned carbon depositsā€¦ these will raise the compression ratio, sometimes so high that you are actually ā€œDieselingā€ which is another word for this scenario. Dieseling refers to the D cycleā€¦which is compression ignition of the intake chargeā€¦ It ignites because the compression is so high that the increase in pressure and temp ignite the charge automaticallyā€¦and thisā€¦ is not supposed to happen in an engine designed for spark ignition.

So thereā€™s the rub. You can get Dieseling or Pingā€¦by overly volatile fuel (read cheap low octane), too high engine temperatures, too high compression, and a wildly out of control ignition system which is early firing the intake charge. There might be another scenario but it escapes me at the momentā€¦

Use this info as you see fit.

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I appreciate you took the time to write this. I read a lot about pinging before creating this thread but this is still useful. I know it is bad for the engine which is why I am getting frustrated already :frowning_face:

I donā€™t think the Seafoam treatment helped. It only seemed to help because I was driving aggressively at 89 octane. At the time of the treatment I still had some of that gas left in the tank.

I filled 1/4 of the tank with 87 this time to test. The engine is still pinging under load.

I have another Saturn S-Series. So I know whatā€™s normal and whatā€™s not. But just in case I am trying to diagnose a problem that is not there, I recorded it.

May need a pair of headphones if you are watching this from your phone. A lot of noise from the engine and power steering pump.

Vid 1 Noise at 0:10

Vid 2 Noise at 0:06 and 0:21

It sounds like a sharp metallic rattle. Only happens under load. Fill the tank with 91 and it goes away. It gets worse when the engine reaches operating temperature.

At this point I am not sure what else to do other than:

  • Cleaning the EGR valve again and try to clean the passages as much as I can.
  • Replace the knock sensor. (There are no codes)
  • Put back the Denso spark plugs that came with the car when I got it.

I read that some Saturn owners with this engine would get some mild pinging with the recommended NGK plugs (BRK4ESA-11), but the problem goes away by switching to Denso plugs.

Wellā€¦ apparently the Seafoam didnā€™t work. :frowning_face:

Silly question but did you happen to take a real engine temp after the engine is fully warmed up. You really should not put much stock in what the gauge says in the vehicle until you test it and compare it to a real gauge or digital thermometer. If she is running over temp without your knowledge you will get this phenomenon all day everyday.

Another area I would look into is the exhaustā€¦ The cat may be semi cloggedā€¦ or gaspā€¦ it may be glowing cherry red when viewed at night.

Sometimes you can unbolt the exhaust to quickly test the vehicle while it has an obvious and loud exhaustā€¦but at least you would know it could breathe properly.

The ignition timing and the spark plug wires are also another area to be concerned withā€¦ for obvious reasons. One of those reasons not immediately obvious is plug wire bleed. When you run wires close togetherā€¦sometimes one or more wires electrical load can be xferred to an adjacent wire and will then actually fire the wrong plug at the wrong time. It is a real thing and something to look into.

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This is a screenshot from the OBD II scanner app on my phone. 204F is just under 1/2 of the temp gauge. Fan kicks in at 221F which is about 5/8 of the gauge.

How do you check the ignition timing? I keep reading about this but I canā€™t find anything about checking the timing.

I never heard of plug wire bleed until now. :open_mouth: The wires are new and spaced apart in 3 points using wire looms.

So if the cat is the suspect, why is it that when I use 91 octane the pinging goes away? :thinking: I also passed smog not too long ago.

I think I will leave this to a shop if itā€™s a cat problem. I donā€™t have the proper tools or the knowledge for this. :frowning_face:

You canā€™t.

The ignition timing is controlled by the computer.

Tester

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I donā€™t see anything obviously wrong with the scan tool data you posted above. That all looks normal to me. On my pre-OBD II vehicles I check the timing using a strobe light. Mechanics call it a ā€œtiming lightā€. The number one spark plug triggers a burst of bright light, and I shine that timing-light on the crank shaft pulley, which has markings to determine the number of degrees before top dead center the number one spark plug fires. I did that procedure recently with my truck in fact, very easy to do. Cleaning off the 47 year old marks enough so I could read them was the most difficult part.

Unfortunately that method wonā€™t work on your Saturn, first b/c thereā€™s no spark plug wires. The basic idea could still work though, just figure out a way to trigger the timing light with another signal. But the second problem is your car-maker decided to not provide those crank-pulley timing marks, so unless you could figure out a way to make the markings yourself, the timing light method just isnā€™t viable. Perhaps some of the more sophisticated scan tools provide the ignition timing. Suggest to double check whether yours has that function. In general for problematic pinging on a COP - OBD II vehicle like yours, when the engine performs well otherwise, and no diagnostic codes present, I tend to rate the suspects in this order

  • spark plug problem
  • ping sensor
  • cooling system
  • crank position sensor
  • O2 sensor or some related air/fuel mixture problem

Given that the spark plug is number one on the list of suspects, and thereā€™s comments from others about the relationships between the spark plugs and this problem for that engine, Iā€™d say the first step is to replace the spark plugs with brand new oem replacements. If the car came w/Denso, replace all the plugs with the exact same Denso part. My Corolla definitely runs better and gets better emissions results with the NGK plugs it came with from the factory.

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I didnā€™t hear any pinging in either video but it would help if you were on a deserted road and not passing a lot of parked cars.

It does not matter which brand of spark plugs you use as long as they are the recommended nose length and heat range. I used several different brands in my Saturn SL (2002) and never had any pinging.

I really think your issue is the knock sensor. If it is working, it retards the timing enough to prevent an audible ping regardless of carbon build up or spark plug brand or anything else.

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I ordered a knock sensor yesterday. I have not touched the plugs or wires yet.

I can try another and record again. The reason why I was passing near the parked vehicles to my left was because it was a very steep hill and because it is easier to capture the noise that way. The sound bounces back. There is too much noise from the wind, tires, engine and the whiny power steering pump.