# Elon Musk should start worrying about his next rival **URL:** \ **Category:** General Discussion\ **Tags:** porsche\ **Created:** [November 13, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471 "2016-11-13T14:25:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![VDCdriver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/vdcdriver/32/30_2.png) [@VDCdriver](https://community.cartalk.com/u/VDCdriver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 2:25pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/1 "2016-11-13T14:25:30Z")
…in the electric car marketplace, namely the upcoming **_Porsche Mission E_**. By utilizing an 800 volt battery pack–instead of Tesla’s 400 volt power supply–this new Porsche can provide the driver with a 250 mile range after just 15 minutes of charging time, and it is also insanely fast if the driver wants to play boy-racer. Its total range is purportedly 300 miles. > **[The Electric Porsche Needs to Roar](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-11/the-electric-porsche-needs-to-roar)** > > The carmaker is doubling down on its electric car efforts. ---
**Author:** ![the\_same\_mountainbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@the\_same\_mountainbike](https://community.cartalk.com/u/the_same_mountainbike)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 3:09pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/2 "2016-11-13T15:09:01Z")
Cool! I always loved Porsches. And the price will be??? ---
**Author:** ![BillRussell](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/billrussell/32/3179_2.png) [@BillRussell](https://community.cartalk.com/u/BillRussell)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 3:12pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/3 "2016-11-13T15:12:19Z")
I don’t understand how the battery voltage is that relevant. It’s the energy stored in the battery that determines range, and that is (mostly) independent of voltage. In other words, for a fixed volume, an 800 volt battery would have half the amp-hour capacity of a 400 volt one. energy is amp-hours x voltage, and it tends to remain constant. Higher voltage does allow for a more efficient motor design, or at least one that weighs less. ---
**Author:** ![Stoveguyy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Stoveguyy](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Stoveguyy)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 4:13pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/4 "2016-11-13T16:13:50Z")
Always thought the composite flywheel storage device was interesting. But, having a 100k rpm flywheel in trunk would be iffy. ---
**Author:** ![db4690](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/db4690/32/2583_2.png) [@db4690](https://community.cartalk.com/u/db4690)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 5:00pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/5 "2016-11-13T17:00:13Z")
Clearly, this will not be an EV for the masses Elon Musk seems to be betting heavily on the small car . . . Model 3? . . . so this Porsche will certainly not compete with that Unless Porsche claims this car will sell in the 30K range, give or take a few thousand And I kind of doubt that ---
**Author:** ![db4690](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/db4690/32/2583_2.png) [@db4690](https://community.cartalk.com/u/db4690)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 5:06pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/6 "2016-11-13T17:06:17Z")
Clearly, this will not be an EV for the masses Elon Musk seems to be betting heavily on the smaller Model 3, so this Porsche will certainly not compete with that This car looks to be competing with the Model S ---
**Author:** ![jtsanders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c2a13f/32.png) [@jtsanders](https://community.cartalk.com/u/jtsanders)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 6:34pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/7 "2016-11-13T18:34:42Z")
I think it will be a lot more expensive that a Model S, no matter how the S is configured. I would be surprised if it is less than $150,000. Very nice car, though. ---
**Author:** ![keith](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/keith/32/5518_2.png) [@keith](https://community.cartalk.com/u/keith)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 8:35pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/8 "2016-11-13T20:35:13Z")
You can bet he is very worried about this car. Porsche is following the same path that many start ups use, including Tesla, which is first make the product for the high end where you get a lot of money for fewer items sold. Remember the first Tesla’s sold for well over $100k. But Porsche has much deeper pockets to start with. First come the high dollar Porsche’s and Audi’s, then VW electrics for the mass market. But on the bright side for Elon, his factory may provide the batteries for Porsche, Audi, VW. ---
**Author:** ![the\_same\_mountainbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@the\_same\_mountainbike](https://community.cartalk.com/u/the_same_mountainbike)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 9:37pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/9 "2016-11-13T21:37:01Z")
> [@keith](#): > > You can bet he is very worried about this car. Naw. Their price points and market segments are totally different. However, it is highly possible that those with the new Porsche will also have a Tesla… and a few Mercedes… and perhaps a Jaguar or two. Maybe even a Bentley! The Porsche is aimed at a very exclusive clientele. Tesla is going for the middle class. I doubt they’ll cross swords. ---
**Author:** ![db4690](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/db4690/32/2583_2.png) [@db4690](https://community.cartalk.com/u/db4690)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 11:27pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/10 "2016-11-13T23:27:43Z")
Tesla Model S is for the middle class . . . ?! Not in my neck of the woods . . . around here, the folks driving a Model S are comfortably above middle class ---
**Author:** ![VDCdriver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/vdcdriver/32/30_2.png) [@VDCdriver](https://community.cartalk.com/u/VDCdriver)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2016, 11:47pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/11 "2016-11-13T23:47:37Z")
> [@db4690](#): > > Tesla Model S is for the middle class . . . ?! > > Not in my neck of the woods . . . around here, the folks driving a Model S are comfortably above middle class +1 I almost always agree with mountainbike, but in this case I will side with db4690’s statement. Yes, Tesla Model S cars are seen with some frequency in my neck of the woods, but I don’t think that the owners of these cars are in the middle class. Instead, I think that they are from the same–elevated–income class as the folks who are driving the incredible number of Maserati Quattoporte models in my area, and those folks are **definitely** from the upper-income strata. ---
**Author:** ![the\_same\_mountainbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@the\_same\_mountainbike](https://community.cartalk.com/u/the_same_mountainbike)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 2:36am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/12 "2016-11-14T02:36:15Z")
The new Tesla model, the Model 3 is $35K, cheaper than a Chevy Bolt. I never said “Model S”. You injected that into my statement yourself. ---
**Author:** ![db4690](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/db4690/32/2583_2.png) [@db4690](https://community.cartalk.com/u/db4690)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 2:52am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/13 "2016-11-14T02:52:08Z")
The Model 3 isn’t even on the roads yet IMO it was quite logical for us to assume you meant a Tesla which is currently on the roads, such as the Model S I don’t have one of these, you know 🔮 But I could probably buy one at some trinket shop, I suppose 😜 ---
**Author:** ![Mustangman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/mustangman/32/44130_2.png) [@Mustangman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Mustangman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 1:18pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/14 "2016-11-14T13:18:00Z")
Flywheel storage has been kicked around for many decades. It has a fundamental physical problem that limits its use. Have you ever taken a bicycle wheel and held it by the axle and spun the wheel? It essentially acts like a gyroscope at that point. It greatly resists your efforts to rotate it out of the axis of the axle. Imagine a flywheel 6 feet in diameter, say 1000 lbs spinning at 10000 rpm or more inside a bus - buses need lots of energy to run. 😉 With the axle vertical, you can steer but uneven rolling pavement may cause one side of the bus to lift the wheels off the ground! 😃 How about having the axis horizontal? Now the bus won’t turn a corner! 😮 ---
**Author:** ![VDCdriver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/vdcdriver/32/30_2.png) [@VDCdriver](https://community.cartalk.com/u/VDCdriver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 1:35pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/15 "2016-11-14T13:35:39Z")
> [@Mustangman](#): > > Flywheel storage has been kicked around for many decades. It has a fundamental physical problem that limits its use. I can recall reading an article–many years ago–in either _Popular Science_ or _Popular Mechanics_ about a plan to build new London Double-Decker buses equipped with a huge horizontal flywheel underneath the floor of the bus. Does anyone know if they were ever built? ---
**Author:** ![Mustangman](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/mustangman/32/44130_2.png) [@Mustangman](https://community.cartalk.com/u/Mustangman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 1:51pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/16 "2016-11-14T13:51:29Z")
> [@VDCdriver](#): > > London Double-Decker buses equipped with a huge horizontal flywheel underneath I think! read that same article, in the 1970’s maybe? This is an interesting read. And it does indicate commercial sales many decades ago; > **[Gyrobus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrobus)** > > A gyrobus is an electric bus that uses flywheel energy storage, not overhead wires like a trolleybus. The name comes from the Greek language term for flywheel, gyros. > While there are no gyrobuses currently in use commercially, development in this area continues. > The concept of a flywheel-powered bus was developed and brought to fruition during the 1940s by Oerlikon (of Switzerland), with the intention of creating an alternative to trolleybuses for quieter, lower-frequency routes, where full ove... A mention of London double-deckjer flywheel buses being planned for 2014-2016 with no followup; > **[Low emission buses in London](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_emission_buses_in_London)** > > There are 3,835 hybrid buses, 950 battery electric buses, and 20 hydrogen fuel cell buses operating in London, as of March 2023, out of a total bus fleet of 8,643 - this is around 56% of the bus fleet. > As of August 2023\[update\], the battery electric fleet of the city is the largest in Europe, ahead of Moscow, which has over 1000 electric buses operating. From 2021, all new buses will be zero emission, and the entire bus fleet will be zero emission by 2034, although Transport for London have s... ---
**Author:** ![circuitsmith](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/circuitsmith/32/40376_2.png) [@circuitsmith](https://community.cartalk.com/u/circuitsmith)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 2:20pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/17 "2016-11-14T14:20:50Z")
> [@Mustangman](#): > > Flywheel storage has been kicked around for many decades. It has a fundamental physical problem that limits its use. The solution is two flywheels spinning in opposite directions. ---
**Author:** ![the\_same\_mountainbike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@the\_same\_mountainbike](https://community.cartalk.com/u/the_same_mountainbike)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 2:54pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/18 "2016-11-14T14:54:25Z")
> [@db4690](#): > > IMO it was quite logical for us to assume you meant a Tesla which is currently on the roads, such as the Model S No. It wasn’t. The Model 3 is the direction Tesla is HEADED, the Model S is the direction it’s coming from. As I said: > [@the\_same\_mountainbik](#): > > Tesla is going for the middle class. You cannot make your own assumptions and claim they came from another poster. I expect Tesla will continue to make a high-end model, but they’re currently trying with the Model 3 to provide a Tesla for the middle class. ---
**Author:** ![TwinTurbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@TwinTurbo](https://community.cartalk.com/u/TwinTurbo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 3:10pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/19 "2016-11-14T15:10:12Z")
If you read the article, it says this- > The speedy charging is due to what Porsche says is a key advantage of its car: an 800-volt battery pack, vs. the 400 volts that’s become the industry standard. Porsche’s technology will let customers top up their batteries to 80 percent—for a range of about 250 miles—in 15 minutes, Porsche says. And the lighter cables required for the system have allowed the company to trim about 50 pounds from the car, which can further boost its range. With 600 horsepower, 0-62 mph acceleration in 3.5 seconds, and a top speed of about 150 mph, the car “will be a real Porsche,” Weckbach says. They’re not saying it is the same technology battery- it is likely to be a different arrangement that allows for faster storage of the available energy. In some cases (especially in the US as compared to Europe), the limitation is the power delivery service, not the battery itself. ---
**Author:** ![texases](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/texases/32/862_2.png) [@texases](https://community.cartalk.com/u/texases)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2016, 3:34pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471/20 "2016-11-14T15:34:23Z")
I wonder how many amps are required to charge that Porsche to 80% in 15 minutes - gotta be a HUGE load! Most current charging systems won’t be able to handle that. [Next page](https://community.cartalk.com/t/elon-musk-should-start-worrying-about-his-next-rival/96471.md?page=2)