Thanks for the perspective, Ranck. I very much appreciate it. I wish there were an easy answer. Money can besuch a stress on one’s life.
I would sleep much better as well, without debt, but that won’t happen until I can sell the property. I’m constantly tortured about the extra debt I’m carrying with the Element, but I guess it’s either that or deal with an unreliable, older car, and have slightly less debt. Thanks for your comments, Craig.
“I would sleep much better as well, without debt, but that won’t happen until I can sell the property. I’m constantly tortured about the extra debt I’m carrying with the Element, but I guess it’s either that or deal with an unreliable, older car, and have slightly less debt. Thanks for your comments, Craig.”
I wouldn’t automatically assume any older car is unreliable. A $1000 car may be questionable, but there are plenty of perfectly good used cars that are reliable and cost a lot less than a new honda. The middle ground is to find a good, well maintained $5000 car and reduce your debt by $10K in the process. New car marketing aside, there is nothing wrong with driving an older car. My daily driver is 25 years old and has over 400K miles, it is also extremely reliable. I drive it about 40K miles per year, I’m leaving on a 3000 mile round trip this weekend. I do have considerably more than $5000 into that car, but I choose not to drive new cars because they are a terrible deal (even worse if you don’t pay cash). The trick is finding the right car, maintaining it very well, and keeping it for a very long time.
No car is worth being “tortured” over debt, just dump it and get some sleep. What’s the worst that can happen? You will free up about $10K of credit and significantly reduce your payments, so you can afford a few $100 repair if necessary. It would probably take a very “unreliable” car to equal the cost of you current payments. Do the math based on selling the honda for market value and buying something else for $5000. How much would you monthly payment go down? Save some of that money for your next car and/or maintenance/repair and start paying of the remaining debt. Just consider this whole thing a “learning experience.” Once you get past the whole “consumer reports” culture of buying “reliable” (but disposable) stuff on credit (so you can throw it away in 5 years and start again), you can actually start keeping some of you own money.
Top Gear did a reliability test for a truck they bought for $1000. Granted it’s a Euro spec Toyota Hilux(tacoma?) diesel which isn’t available in the US(yet), but they prove that a $1000 vehicle can be a really good buy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hzRLG8dA-E part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Uc4Ksz3nHM part 2a
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfZDtC9kjVk part 2b
I think Craig is exactly right here about cheap cars. I get the impression that some of the people who post here about the financial horrors of owning a 20-year old car haven’t done so in a long while. A few repairs every now and again at a few hundred a pop are not very likely to even add up to the same as a new car payment, not to mention expensive insurance. It can be annoying not being able to predict the inconvienence and expense of a breakdown, but that piece of mind is part of the luxury you buy with a new car. I am also a firm believer that major drivetrain failures (i.e. engines and transmissions dying) are no more likely on a 20-year old car than they are on a 10-year old one, plus when they do occur, you have much less invested in your 20-year old car!
My own personal anecdotal evidence (oxymoron?) is that I have never bought a car for more than $1000 and none of them that I have bought for transportation (as opposed to the ones I bought to play around with) have ever had any major problems. I paid about 850 for my 88 Buick Century I owned from 120k to 220k which cost me nothing more than maintinence, a couple of alternators and a starter. Sold it running. I had an 88 Taurus that I got for $150, though it had certain issues such as no keys, I drove for about a year and a half and 35k miles buying nothing but gasoline and oil changes before I passed it on to someone else. Our current runabout car is a 1986 Honda Accord I bought for $550 bucks (plus the cost of a timing belt) and has been flawless for about 40k now. The '89 Toyota, my most major investment at $1000, has cost me an alternator in a year and a half of me owning it and regularly taking it in rough roads in the mountains.
Now, it’s not like I have some sort of connections-- all of my cars have been bought out of the paper or off craigslist or, most commonly, from private sellers who have them parked somewhere. And it’s defintely not like I’m some sort of savvy car-buyer-- I can only remember looking at one car that I didn’t end up buying.
If you, the original poster, get this Wagovan checked over by a mechanic, I can practically guarantee that it will cost you less to own than the Element. And, yes, it sucks that you will end up paying money on the loan for the car you don’t own, but it doesn’t sound like you’re paying it off anytime soon and the thing definitely isn’t getting any less depreciated!
Just to be fair about the whole “old car” thing, there will sometimes be inconvenience / expense. Today was a good example, I noticed that one of my front brake calipers was leaking a little and I’m driving from CO to OH tomorrow. Of course it was 1:00 PM on friday when I saw this. I headed over to my indy’s shop and asked him to find me some parts. Two hours and $500 later I had everything I need to replace the calipers, discs, pads, and flex lines. Now I get to spend a couple of hours doing a brake job first thing saturday morning so I can get on the road. Fortunately those types of issues are infrequent, but you do have to be prepared to spend a little time/money when they do happen.
Craig: Exactly! If you do the newer car path, you know when you’re making your car payment every month which is part of the convienience that you pay more for. On the old car path, the car decides when you’re making the car payment, which can be disconcerting, especially if its in the middle of the night on the turnpike or something. I still think if you’re smart about buying your old car, the unexpected car payments will almost always end up less than your scheduled ones for a new car.
You said you can’t live without a car, but how often do you really drive? Have you researched Zipcar? I know there are plenty of locations within the greater Boston area. They have Scions xBs and Toyota pickups if you need to haul some larger equipment along.
I agree that it’s still better than making car payments (or writing a check for $60K, since I don’t borrow money for cars), and I do have the option of just using a different car if mine breaks down at an inconvenient time. To tell the truth, I just don’t like new cars very much. They have too much electronic crap, and I can’t really take them apart and play with them. I do enjoy working on old cars, and I really don’t mind fixing my brakes (although the timing could be better). You just have to think of everything that wears out as an opportunity for restoration. Even with my “over repairs,” I estimate that I can drive my car indefinitely for about $0.30/mile, compared to about $0.60/mile for a new one. Best of all, mine stop depreciating about 10 years ago.
No, the Wagovan was a little-publicized cheaper trim line of the regular 2WD Honda Civic wagon in the late 1980s. It had vinyl upholstery instead of cloth, and for some reason had little horizontal metal bars mounted on the inside side of the rear quarter windows (for Japanese domestic cargo delivery duty??). Otherwise it was just the same as the regular 2WD Civic I think. It did have one small “Wagovan” badge on the rear tailgate, which is probably the reason breatheasy and I have heard of the term. The 4WD Civic wagon was a little bit fancier (power steering even on the manual trans!) but was never available in the USA with Wagovan trim.
If I’m reading you right you purchased the honda out right with money you borrowed from a credit line on some property. So you don’t owe any thing on the honda as you have title. You owe on the credit line from some property. This said,that you do with the car is entirely up to you. How ever what you need is to re-finance the property or the credit line. The interst has come down a bit and you should never get a variable interest only loan ever,+ for the banker. Before you make any more wrong moves go as fast as you can to the bank,credit union,or a personal financial advisor. Get some advice on your debit not on your car. While you could sell off the debit free car you have now to lower the debit on the credit line if thats the case start selling off other things of value too. But agian this will not solve you problem as IT is the debit on the property that is the problem.
The usefulness of that advice really depends on how much the OP’s employer will tolerate tardiness for unreliable transportation. If her boss is understanding and she isn’t going to lose her job for being late because of an occasional break-down, owning a 20-year-old car and saving money is an option. If, however, she has major problems every couple months and doesn’t have an understanding boss, owning a 20-year-old car isn’t a good idea.
Your method of car ownership is very cost-effective. I will grant you that. However, if you were in a job interview and had to answer the question “Do you have reliable transportation to and from work?” could you answer “yes” honestly with any 20-year-old car?
“Your method of car ownership is very cost-effective. I will grant you that. However, if you were in a job interview and had to answer the question “Do you have reliable transportation to and from work?” could you answer “yes” honestly with any 20-year-old car?”
I drove my 20+ year old car from CO to OH sunday on business (and I really needed to be in OH on monday morning). A well maintained older car is just as reliable as any new car. Actually, a 10 year old car is cheaper; at some point they start getting expensive again. I just happen to like 20 year old cars better than either new cars or 10 year old cars.
BTW, having a boss is not a very good idea either. I fired my last boss a long time ago. (-;
at some point they start getting expensive again.
Usually around 30 or 40 years old, depending on make and model. A 65 chevelle Malibu doesn’t seem worth that much, but if you slap a couple SS badges on the side and call it a clone, you can almost double the price.
I have looked into Zipcar, and although it is a great option, it won’t work for me. I drive 3-4 times/week, sometimes with last minute notice, and frequently moving things (10’ black iron pipe and flat stock, a kiln, etc etc)
My daily driver is 25 years old and has over 400K miles, it is also extremely reliable.
Craig, your comments are very helpful, and it is nice to hear about your experience with older cars.
Thankfully, I don’t have a boss other than myself, because I am self employed.
Once you get past the whole “consumer reports” culture of buying “reliable” (but disposable) stuff on credit (so you can throw >it away in 5 years and start again), you can actually start keeping some of you own money.
Craig, this is what my gut and calculations tell me, but it has been difficult to discern the best approach because underneath it all, I want to sell the Element and get the Wagovan, or some older car. I hope to do some/most of the work on the older car myself, thereby saving more cash, but certainly don’t want to spend all my weekends learning how to fix X, then Y then Z. Thanks for your input.
If you, the original poster, get this Wagovan checked over by a mechanic, I can practically guarantee that it will >cost you less to own than the Element. And, yes, it sucks that you will end up paying money on the loan for the >car you don’t own, but it doesn’t sound like you’re paying it off anytime soon and the thing definitely isn’t getting >any less depreciated!
Thanks, GreasyJack. I am hoping that the Wagovan will be a decent first car to start working on. I will definitely bring it to a mechanic. Sounds like you’ve had some great luck over the years with your car choices!