“If a mechanic or shop doesn’t understand the electrical system, he or she shouldn’t be doing the repairs.”
Most new car dealerships would close their service departments in a MINUTE if the factories would let them…They would like the factories to establish and maintain FACTORY warranty and parts depots…
The dealership may be in a difficult position tho that doesn’t excuse sloppy customer service. At least in my experience, many of us work in situations where we have to balance seemingly unsolvable dilemmas. The challenge as I see it is to find a way to make this work without upsetting too many customers. The better shops/dealershis can do this.
The mechanic isn’t always to blame as far as these “misunderstandings” go
The service writer plays a BIG part in the overall experience that the customer has
The service writer plays a BIG part in the overall experience that the customer has
I’ve met maybe two service writers that knew anything about cars.
I guess I’m not differentiating between mechanic and service writer, both represent the “shop” to me. That must be quite a circus if the service writer isn’t skilled in what he’s doing.
The mechanic is the one working on the cars in the shop, the service writer/adviser/counselor is the one in the office dealing with the customers. It’s impossible to have the mechanic deal with the customers and get anything done. It can be a circus. I once worked at a shop with one writer and three mechanics. That means that at any given time the writer could have been dealing with 10 open tickets/clients. I was always surprised that he managed it as well as he did. Even so, things can get lost in translation. Perhaps in the seat heater scenario the mechanic suggested the module as a diagnostic step and the writer presented it to the customer as a fix.
Not to give any secrets up, but a shop with poor mechanics and a stellar writer will make more money and have happier customers than a shop with top-notch mechanics and a poor writer.
Other than agreeing with the part about service writers being a middleman and often the cause of problems I will say this in regards to the comment about a shop or mechanic not being in the business if they don’t understand the electrical system. That is bunk.
That comment assumes that everything is black and white with electrics and that’s not the case at all. Even a prior statement about the fuse load, yada, yada, is not correct.
i beg to differ. the electronics is pretty clear cut. the ‘black box’ part is the software that runs it. it requires a lot of careful interrogation to reverse engineer software. honestly not worth it for anyone (unless you want to do some remote control car jacking). let’s face it, a heated seat should be no more complicated than a cheap coffee maker (and even those are more complicated than they need to be)
There could be a way to diagnose just the seat heater element first before looking at a module. What about disconnecting the battery and run a power and ground directly from the battery to the wires that power the heater grid in the seat. If that does not make the heater work then for sure you have eliminated one main problem first. If you had found out that the heater grid was bad first it would have been easier to decide on whether to replace the module also.
Just as a customer and not in the business, the thing is you need to deal with service providers fairly and honestly. You can go in and ream out the folks up and down and get your $300 back the first time. The next time you really need something done, or a favor, or a quick emergency repair, and so on, everyone is likely to be walking the other way when you come in. Its a two way street and no one needs customers that are going to be more of a loss than a gain. Just saying there are people around town that no one will deal with because of their chiseling reputation.
Yep, someone made a mistake or a mis-communication. The reality is that the part was replaced so the OP benefitted from the new part, whether it was the total problem or not.
@bing, it is all well and good. i am fairly laid-back in person. that said, i really can’t afford to spend $300 and get nothing from it. while it might be a benefit later, when i ask for a favor, it may also back fire on me, where they say ‘here comes that sucker again! did i tell you about the time i did nothing and charged him $300?’
I don’t fix cars, but I do work with computers which I find somewhat similar in complexity. I always want to manage customer expectations. I think it’s critical to tell someone realistically what the outcome can be of a course of action. I tell customers if an estimate is subject to substantial variation due to diagnostic uncertainty - especially if the $300 can turn into $800. I also try and give them a probability - that is if 80% of the time I see problem X, Y fixes it for $300, but 20% of the time it also takes Z for an additional $500 - the customer should know that as part of the estimate.
If I’m not sure I understand what the customer is asking for or haven’t seen the setup myself to make an estimate, I make it clear I’m not guaranteeing anything until I know more.
This isn’t a special skill, or hard to do. Screwing this up causes very frustrated customers like in this thread. And it’s bad business.
For what it’s worth and a FYI to those who do not work on cars for a living, a factory rep has been known to recommend a guesswork part and some factory service manuals will state that parts swapping should be done if all testing show things to be good.
The people who build the cars are saying this.
This is true even of older cars which are much simpler. Take the old Ford TFI ignition module. It’s a simple system and easy to run tests on. That module can be problematic without ever setting a code and a technician can run the tests on it a 1000 times without it ever showing a problem.
Regarding the bit about fuse load, the most extreme example of this I can think of is the old VW 4 cylinder diesel glow plug circuits.
Fuse -50 amps.
Steady glow plug draw - 36 amps.
Initial current surge - 70+ amps.
Don’t see a problem here; excluding the fact that a 36 amp load will eventually do in a 50 amp fuse?
Another could be the 10 amp Toyota Camry dash fuse where the electrical engineers have managed to route a dozen circuits through it.
I’m only saying that electrical issues on modern cars are much more complicated and it’s a cold blooded fact that not everything is as clear as some believe it to be.
The final solution would be to provide an electrical estimate just like one for a performance problem; the shop rate is X dollars and hour and the clock starts ticking when the car enters the shop. It may be 30 minutes or 30 hours. How many would agree to that? Few, if any.
The last car for which I had the factory service manual was my 1978 Oldsmobile. I could follow the circuits with some work. When the windshield washer pump went bad that was built into the wiper motor, I decided rather than to replace the wiper motor with the built in pump, to use an inline universal pump. When I first connected the pump, it ran continuously. After studying the wiring diagram, I saw that the washer switch and the wiper switch completed the path to ground. The positive side was always live at the wiper motor. I then realized what I had to do to make the washer pump work perfectly.
I used to repair my own radios and televisions in the old hand-wired chassis days; In a radio, for example, repairs weren’t too difficult as one could trace the circuit from where the signal was picked up to the audio output at the speaker. However, new cars with many circuits controlled by body control modules must be horrendously difficult to trace problems. Today’s television repairmen don’t have the problems in tracing a problem. The flat screen television only has 3 components–a driver board, a power supply board and the display. I’ve had two flat screen television sets fail under warranty. The repairman came to the house, replaced a circuit board in 10 minutes and was on his way. Maybe this is why the factory service reps can only suggest swapping in another part.
@Triedaq, a timely comment from you. I was just reading a post on another forum (for automotive professionals) where we were discussing a wiper problem on a 2006 Dodge Magnum.
">wiper switch that feeds the Steering Column Control Module
(SCCM or SCM) via a bunch of resistors to SCM, which in turn
turns these inputs into a signal that rides the CAN and goes
all over, including the FCM and IPM that turns the wiper
relays on.
Be careful with those acronyms. There’s a little more to it,
as explained below, courtesy of Chrysler:
The Steering Control Module (SCM) communicates via the Local
Interconnect Network (LIN) serial data bus. This is an
ultra-low voltage serial data bus that allows the following
components to communicate with the Controller Area Network
(CAN) B and C data buses.
Steering Wheel Switches Horn Speed Control Switch
Multi-function Switch Tilt/Telescoping Switch (if equipped)
Steering Angle Sensor (if equipped with Electronic Stability
Program (ESP)) Steering Control Module (SCM) The SCM changes
the LIN communication to CAN communication and also stores
Diagnostic Trouble Codes (DTC’s) for the switches within the
SCCM."
You want to try to wire in a universal pump to that system?
I’d also agree with @ok4450 on the point that (disappointingly) we are sometimes directed by factory service manuals to “substitute known good part” as part of a diagnostic procedure.
@asemaster–At this point I would try to find an old style windshield washer kit like I put on my Corvair when the pump section of the wiper motor failed. The kit consisted of a dome mounted on the floor with a check valve. Stepping on the dome and releasing drew washer fluid from the reservoir into the dome. Stepping on the dome again squirted the fluid through the nozzles onto the windshield. My 1965 Rambler and 1968 Javelin had a similar system as factory equipment.
I really don’t see the need for my windshield washer to be talking to the turning signals through some Local Interconnected Network through a serial data bus. In fact, I can’t see what the windshield washer, horn, speed control switch, and all the other things you listed have to talk about anyway. These devices may become so busy talking to each other that they ignore what they are supposed to be doing–washing the windshield, signaling turns, etc.
Interestingly, my last Chrysler product was a 1968 Dart and it had the floor washer pump and a bag under the hood. Worked every time. It also was the best and easiest to understand factory service manuals that I have had. They used to be the best company with the best products but times have changed, I guess. Haven’t owned one in 40 years.
@Triedaq, sometimes things seem overly complicated but in fact most of the time things work and are designed seamlessly and you’re not even aware they’re happening. The wipers need to talk to the rest of the car. Say you have the wipers on delay 2. You need more wiping at 60mph than at a stoplight. So the car varies the wiper cycles depending on speed, it happens and you don’t even notice. The power locks system is talking to the transmission so you don’t inadvertently open the trunk unless the car is in park. And so on…
To me the biggest problems happen when people who don’t understand the systems try to fix them.
@asemaster-I agree that most of the time things work as designed. We have a 2011 Toyota Sienna with all kinds of features. It was cheaper to buy the car off the dealer’s lot than order the vehicle with fewer features. Power locks and interval wipers are a convenience but I wouldn’t miss them. There is a read-out for miles per gallon, but my dad taught me how to figure that when I was in 4th grade. I have no problem opening the trunk from the rear of the vehicle without an inside release. Now all these features have never given me a problem, but I could do very well without them.
I agree that it is big problem when people who don’t understand the systems try to fix them. I think there are two different mind sets–those who understand mechanical operations and those who understand electronic operations. My brother is a plumber and can look over a system in a house and know exactly what to do. I have a hard time adjusting a simple fill valve on a toilet. On the other hand, I finally had to drive over 200 miles to his house and wire the new kitchen he added to his house even though I had sent him diagrams and what I thought was a thorough written explanation. He is also a great jazz pianist–plays in group that has had all kinds of playing gigs. Yet, he doesn’t read music well. I play horn in two concert bands and an orchestra and I have to have that line of music in front of me. I believe that today’s auto technicians really need a thorough understanding of electronics to repair the systems on today’s cars. This is a completely different world than the mechanics who worked mostly on mechanical systems, just as jazz improvisation is a foreign world to me as a classical musician.