@oldschool - The TSB is for brake fade, the uneven pad wear is possibly a separate issue. You are (quite) right about Honda not admitting to a problem; I need to get the Honda dealership to go on a test drive with me to see their lives flash before their eyes too!
Hey 07-045 does not deal with brake fade,it deals with a low or soft pedal,I checked and Checkmate!
Also found (Thank you Click and Clack!) this investigation:
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/defects/results.cfm
PE09024 N/A
Make: HONDA Model: ODYSSEY
Manufacturer : HONDA (AMERICAN HONDA MOTOR CO.)
Year : 2006
Component :
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/defects/results.cfm
SERVICE BRAKES, HYDRAULIC:ANTILOCK
Date Investigation Opened : May 13, 2009
Date Investigation Closed : Open
Summary:
THE OFFICE OF DEFECTS INVESTIGATION HAS RECEIVED 52 COMPLAINTS ALLEGING LOW OR SOFT BRAKE PEDALS IN MODEL YEAR (MY) 2006 THROUGH 2008 HONDA ODYSSEY MINIVANS. SEVERAL COMPLAINTS ALLEGE THAT THE CONDITION RESULTED IN EXTENDED STOPPING DISTANCES, INCLUDING 4 ALLEGED CRASHES AND 2 ALLEGATIONS OF VEHICLES RUNNING PAST STOP SIGNS/SIGNALS. ON JANUARY 14, 2009, HONDA ISSUED SERVICE BULLETIN 07-045 CONCERNING LOW/SOFT BRAKE PEDALS IN CERTAIN MY 2003 THROUGH 2007 HONDA ACCORD AND MY 2007 THROUGH 2008 HONDA ODYSSEY VEHICLES. A REVISED BULLETIN WAS ISSUED MARCH 5, 2009, ADDING MY 2007 THROUGH 2008 HONDA ELEMENT VEHICLES. THE BULLETIN DESCRIBES THE CONDITION SYMPTOM AS FOLLOWS, “WHEN YOU APPLY THE BRAKES, THE BRAKE PEDAL TRAVELS LOWER AND FEELS SOFTER THAN NORMAL.” THE BULLETIN IDENTIFIES THE PROBABLE CAUSE AS, “THE ABS/TCS OR VSA MODULATOR-CONTROL UNIT HAS LEAKED AIR INTO THE BRAKE SYSTEM.” THE BULLETIN REPAIR PROCEDURE INVOLVES REPLACING THE ABS/TCS OR VSA MODULATOR CONTOL UNIT. SOME OF THE ODI COMPLAINTS INDICATE THAT THE BULLETIN PROCEDURE WAS PERFORMED TO ADDRESS THE CONCERN. BECAUSE ODI’S COMPLAINT INPUT IS SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER FOR THE ODYSSEY VEHICLES, THEY ARE THE SUBJECT VEHICLES OF THIS INVESTIGATION. HOWEVER, ODI WILL ALSO REQUEST INFORMATION FROM HONDA REGARDING THE OTHER VEHICLES IDENTIFIED IN THE BULLETIN. A PRELIMINARY EVALUATION HAS BEEN OPENED TO ASSESS THE SCOPE, FREQUENCY AND POTENTIAL SAFETY CONSEQUENCES OF THE ALLEGED DEFECT.
And this applies to you in which way? We were dealing with a issue of brake fade as in prolonged use heated up the brakes and caused them to fade. You recieved several responses dealing with the causes of fade (long downhills)It seems you are changing gears.
Correct, it is actually brake failure that the Honda has.
Symptomatically, it applies to this Honda Accord (and potentially others from the NHTSA and TSB) in that the vehicle simply doesn’t stop. Quite straightforward.
(good pun on the changing gears – wish I had the time to change gears in those instances!)
I am really willing to work with you in regards to identifying a problem if it does exist,but you misled us. What I mean is were were trying to help you deal with brake fade and no one could understand how a situation that no one had seen in many years was present on your car. You let us theorize that it was somehow related to the hybrid aspect of your vehicle and that was never the case and you knew it.We were telling you about downshifting on hills and perhaps the brakes being designed undersize when all along you knew this wasn’t at all the issue.
What was your motive for not comming out at the beginning of the post and say what you suspected,that your brake system suffered from the condition described?
Yes you are a smart guy, but taking the Forum members on a ride like this took advantage of our concern and willingness to hear you out and try to help.
@oldschool - Good pun again – ‘ride’ on the forum; I suspect stopping may be as difficult as with the Honda Accord with failing brakes. Unfortunately, we are all learning of this issue as we dig deeper, and I hope that this saves some folks from unintended non-deceleration with their Honda.
BTW, the NHTSA site also tracks injury (and worse) incidents for all vehicles. Interesting to see that Honda has brake issue annotations for some injuries reported therein.
The recommendation is for normal activities. Apparently, the brakes overheated. It makes sense to change the fluid. This is something that you and a friend, or even just you can do. If you do it the cost can be less than $10.
@jtsanders - True enough, and I’ve done maintenance scheduled hydraulic fluid changes on previous vehicles, such as 1970’s Jeeps, and 1990’s Honda Accords. But not at 35k miles, which is quite early, IMHO. In fact, this vehicle is under warranty, so I’m being abundantly cautious, and following the instructions in the Honda shop manual.
You will not void the warranty if you change the fluid, even if you do it yourself. It’s really easy. There are instruction videos on You Tube and you can buy the drain kit for less than $10 at your local auto parts store. I did it at 40,000 miles. If you do it yourself, use Honda brake fluid or DOT4 synthetic hydrocarbon fluid with a high boiling point. Do not use silicone fluid.
The difference between Honda recommendations and your situation is that it seems that you overheated the braking system as you descended from the Sierra Nevadas. This won’t go away until you drain and replace the brake fluid.
@jtsanders - Good suggestion, particularly with high boiling temperature. I’m still leery that this is not the root cause though. When you spin the wheels on the lift, how many 360degree rotations do you get, if you recall? Mine go for 180degrees ±90degrees depending on wheel. Seems like brake dragging.
Just nitpicking for a moment, but the brake fluid is not 3 years old. It’s likely 4 years old because the car was probably built in the summer/fall of '06.
Add that to the thin pad lining (especially on the rear), mix in some downhill heating, and the fade could be normal with all 3 of those things factored in.
Brake shuddering is another issue; likely warped or out of parallel rotors which could be exacerbated by overheating pads.
Carbonita:
You have received repeated advice that your brakes faded due to the extreme demands placed upon them descending the side of a mountain. The advice was nearly universal in suggesting downshifting in the future, and/or replacing the brake fluid. To that, I might add: if descending mountains is a frequent use of the vehicle, you might want to consider a brake upgrade.
Given carbonita’s reticence to follow “common sense” suggestions on the basis of “well, that’s not what the Owner’s Manual states,” combined with certain choices of wording, suggests strongly to me that she’s interested–not in car advice–but rather in mounting a legal assualt on Honda. AFAIK, there has never been a requirement for an auto manufacturer to design a “fade-proof” braking system, nor has OP demonstrated his car to be uniquely vulnerable…lots of cars would be capable of fade in similar circumstances.
Two questions for Carbonita: 1. does the Owner’s Manual advise downshifiting during prolonged descents? 2. What was the load being carried by the vehicle in relation to the GVWR?
@meanjoe75fan - There’s some impreciseness in your post, of varying levels of egregiousness, so let me attempt to mitigate those concerns. Firstly, the demand on the brakes included a driver and two passengers, all quite slender (and tall, and good-looking…but I digress) Nothing being towed, with luggage totaling less than 20lbf. Not what most would denote ‘extreme’, quite modest a load, it would seem.
Re the legal “assualt” (sic): If one was interested in that course of action, a plaintiff’s attorney would possibly be a more reasoned initial step, rather than the car talk forum. It should be of interest to those that own this vehicle that Honda is already under investigation by NHTSA for alleged brake failure incidents.
The suggestions are based on both the owner’s manual and the Honda service manual, the latter for diagnostic procedures, and the former for service intervals. Neither manual indicates downshifting for this hybrid honda vehicle.
Oh and a nit; Yosemite is not a mountain, but park primarily known for its valley filled with Winnebago’s, many of which make it out safely without brake failure, I suspect.
“Oh and a nit; Yosemite is not a mountain, but park primarily known for its valley filled with Winnebago’s, many of which make it out safely without brake failure, I suspect.”
It’s a National Park with several mountains over 10,000 feet tall that are part of the Sierra Nevada range. If you weren’t so condescending, you might get a bit more help.
Typo notwithstanding, my advice stands. Every physical system has inherent limtations–the “design envelope.” You experienced brake fade because you “punched through the envelope.” I am unaware of certification standards for passenger vehicles that require “fade-proof” brakes.
Neither manual indicates downshifting for this hybrid honda vehicle.
Well, then, absent specific instruction to the contrary, what were you taught in Driver’s Ed about descending a grade? Is there instruction in the Owner’s Manual advising against downshifting?
Also, whether or not imminent legal action is intended, you use wording that I’ve only seen lawyers use, and generally they only use when being paid. Not quite “proximately caused,” but close. I still think the “seeking of car advice” is a “cover story”; that the forum is being “played” a bit for an ulterior motive.
The only place and time I have ever experienced brake fade was driving from Yosemite to Sequoia National Park. The year was 1969 and I was driving a 1966 Dodge van pulling a tent trailer.
Unless you have an active brake cooling system,I have never heard of brakes that wouldn’t fade under continous application.Good driving habits,equal safe stopping.You must understand system limitations.There is an 8-9% grade on a curvey road near here and a lot folks"smoke em"-Kevin
I don’t know about the accord, but my Odyssey has pretty consarned good brakes. I don’t think Honda is one to put too-small brakes on a car. Truckers use a technique called “snub braking” that involves alternating periods of brief, firm application and longer periods of release to let the brakes cool. If you ride the brakes the whole way down a long hill they might just overheat and fade on you. This, of course, goes along with taking the down-hill stretch at an appropriate speed.