You’ve offered nothing that hasn’t been floating around for a couple of years in chain letter e-mails, something that defies the laws of economics.
And who might these “oil company lovers” be? Don’t count me as one.
We can’t change our thinking or think out of the box…
Lots of ideas come from outside the box, some good and some bad. Thinking outside the box is a good idea if you understand the problem. Good luck with that.
Wow, Doc, that one seems to have hit a raw nerve! I’ve never seen you respond with such…enthusiasm!
Now, my opinion. The best way to beat them is to develop/find better and more efficient ways to transport ourselves and heat our homes.
Start by inventing a vehicle specifically for commuting, perhaps a comfortable, laid back trike, single seater, highly stable (two wheels in front with a wide stance, one in back). Perhaps a nice V-twin capable of highway travel at, say, 50 to 60 mpg. And affordable…no frills except a cowling…just good transport. Under $5,000. Then mass market it specifically for commuters. I want one. Please.
We haven’t even explored all the real options in gas engine transport yet.
And yes, we need to tap currently untappable (due to regulations) oil resources such as ANWR in the interim.
Now how do we get all those suburban soccer moms out of their SUVs?
I was referring to the same tanker making deliveries to different stations on the same day. However, you are absolutely right about the corporate-owned stations. They have no choice but to purchase their gas from that corporation. But that corporation can and does sell to other stations, mainly smaller independents. Hence the futility of trying to hurt that corporation. If total usage doesn’t drop, they’ll just sell it to the other stations down the street that don’t have the “stigma” of the corporate name on its signs. Might this be why Exxon/Mobil recently announced they are getting out of the retail gasoline business by selling off its stations?
I don’t know where this BS comes from all the time that US gas is the cheapest in the world. We actually pay slightly more for the actual product than the Europeans do. The difference is they add a hefty social tax to pay for all of their social programs like health care, pensions, and so on. They do this because they are scared to death of an underclass rising up again like they did in WW II.
Now if you add up what we pay for gas, plus insurance premiums, plus social security, plus the portion of tax going to welfare, plus our personal contributions to charities, and so on, we in the US are paying way more than Europe, working 40-60 hours a week instead of 30, with maybe two weeks vacation instead of a month. Lets compare apples to apples.
“Now how do we get all those suburban soccer moms out of their SUVs?”
Mountainbike:
I think that I might be able top what you have seen! For several months, on my morning commute, I spotted three different different women who would drive their precious little darlings a-a-a-l-l-l the way from the house to the bottom of their driveway–a total of about 50 ft. in each case–and then sit in their vehicles, with the engine idling while waiting for the arrival of the school bus.
The vehicles in question were a Chevy Suburban, a Ford Expedition, and a Ford Windstar, and the area in question is in a semi-rural area of Central NJ. Just imagine the gas that was wasted by idling the engines of these vehicles every morning. On a few occasions, I was in back of the school bus, so I was able to witness all three mommies backing their vehicles up the driveway after precious was allowed to exit mommy’s car in order to board the bus.
If these incidents occurred exclusively on very cold days, or very wet days, I might be able to understand this behavior to some extent, even though I cannot imagine children (apparently somewhere in the 10-14 year old age range) being babied in this fashion. These kids could have stood near the roadway for a few minutes until their bus arrived. If they felt that they needed to stay warm or dry, they could have waited on their respective enclosed porches for the arrival of the bus. Instead, they were chauffered 50 ft. or so, and were sheltered in an idling vehicle, rather than allowing them to stand outside for a few minutes
Not only are we creating a nation of wimps, but we are squandering gas as we create those wimps!
I do agree, nothing so very new. And I’m not touting my knowledge, I’m just looking for a common sense solution to enforce some type of corporate responsible behavoir in the US Oil industry. Perhaps these chain letters are having impact though as EM would be top on my list of oil companies that don’t have the public’s interest at heart in any fashion. Perhaps a part of the US has already started boycotting the company if there retail business is already in trouble. I’d be surprised. I’ve not bought fuel from them for many years, but for a different reason. Right, understanding complex problems is not easy. But sometimes simple outside the box solutions do create change rather quickly. The balance sheets I’ve examined that show coporate profit and precentage of re-investment is pathetic. Does anyone think the oil companies have been acting responsible as of late?
Yes, there is a lot of behavior that needs to change. The soccer mom example is an excellent one.
And I started this line of discussion because I want my TDI which gets great mileage, and I don’t see a reason why diesel fuel has risen so dramatically in the US as of late, unless of course, it’s a pre-emptive, pre-meditated act to discourage TDI purchases or find a way to equally profit on fuel purchase for very efficient fuel-sipping vehicles. Let’s not forget that clean diesel was mandated years ago, and delayed and delayed.
And, I wasn’t counting YOU in as one of the “oil company lovers”.
Actually, European refiners and American ones pay the same price for the crude oil they process. European refiners are a little more efficient since their plants are more modern. At the retail end, I don’t know what the margins are, but Europe is very compact, so the gas arriving at the pump would cost the distibutor less. Agree that the main difference is in the tax applied by federal and local governments.
I disagree with you on the reason for applying the tax, however. Europe is very congested and cheap gas and no limit on cars and engine size would make the place unlivable! So most countries there have a heavy horsepower tax, a weight tax applied both at the sale of the vehicle and on the yearly renewal of the license plates. That’s called the road tax, which can be $1800 per year for a V8 powered large car in France.
In addition there is a heavy fuel tax applied for a variety of reasons. Countries without oil, such as Denmark and Sweden put it on to protect their balance of payments, something the US should do with a $350 billion/year oil import bill. Other countries with oil, such as Norway and Britain put it on because someday the stuff will run our and they don’t want to get hooked on cheap gas, and large import bills.
All this tax revenue of course allows some taxes to be reduced elsewhere or applied to free univerisity education(Sweden, France), free health care (most countries), better infrastructure, good public transit, and longer paid holidays. If we look at income tax only, the US has very low taxes compared to Europe.
Western Europe no longer has an underclass in the strictest sense; there is a minimum wage which is very high compared to the US, and if you can’t work you still get a healthy guaranteed income. Only in France do disguntled workers and students protest for whatever bothers them; in all cases they are too chicken to fight, or realize what a good deal they really have.
If you are unhealthy or lazy, Europe is defintely the place to be. If you are healthy, ambitious, and smart, the US is your dream come true.
positive change:
actually you have a misconception about deliveries of petroleum.
i AM the tank truck driver you are referring to on the previous page.
i routinely deliver many gallons. sometimes i start out with the load being owned by one customer. by the time i arrive at my destination the ownership of the load has changed hands multiple times. sometimes i have been turned around (for instance half way from new york to providence i have been rerouted back to new haven to dump the whole load) so the customer has changed, the destination has changed, and the terminal has changed. the only thing that has remained constant is that the product is still 4,000,000 gallons of gasoline (of whatever octane)
so, how does this equate to the thought that one product is delivered from one terminal to one station? there is NO truth to the (though well intentioned) thought that in a utopia world one name brand actually means one name brand from refinery to station. it just ain’t so!
you would be surprised how many times i have discharged half a load at mobil, then slid across the river to (texaco, shell, getty, global, citgo, fill in the blank) and visa versa. get the big picture?
And I’m not touting my knowledge…I don’t see a reason why diesel fuel has risen so dramatically…
Perhaps that is part of the problem. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out how to make oil companies treat us fairly. It does, however, take a basic understanding of macroeconomics to know that oil companies are not doing anything wrong. They get paid by their customers to provide a highly demanded product. They are providing a product for which we are willing to pay. They are not treating us fairly or unfairly. Their decision to provide a product we want is morally neutral and I personally consider it useful.
I am not a lover or oil companies, but I understand enough about how the economy works to know they are not the problem. The problem is that some people have bestowed upon themselves the moral authority to think they are being mistreated because fuel is expensive.
Here is an idea that can gain some traction. If you want to affect positive change, target an oil company and execute a hostile takeover. If you don’t have the financing or resources to take over the oil company, accumulate some wealth or study to become a CEO or a board member. Take over the company from the inside and run it as you think it should be run. If those plans are too grand for you, you could buy some stock in the company. That would give you some voting rights to elect the board of directors (one vote per share).
It won’t take a rocket scientist to affect change, but it will take some specialized knowledge. So go off and accumulate the knowledge to create positive change. Those heroes who affect positive change rarely solicit approval from strangers online.
Perhaps these chain letters are having impact though as EM would be top on my list of oil companies that don’t have the public’s interest at heart in any fashion.
Nope, those e-mails are spoofs and they have the same chance of being effective as your idea. Please see Selective Gasoline Boycott | Snopes.com and Don't Buy Gas on April 15 | Snopes.com for proof.
Mountainbike, you are on the right track. The market will eventually segregate into small commuter and local errand cars with very high mileage, and more traditional family cars with very good mileage as well. Our car fleets will look more like the rest of the world then.
Alternative power plants, however will take a long time to arrive. Fuel cells will first be applied to busses and delivery vehicles. A hydrogen economy is still along way off.
All I hear from you is why it won’t work. Give me a list of those representatives and I’ll work and donate money to anyone who will run against them. I’m open to new ideas, just give me a little effort toward a solution, instead of platitudes on the sad state of our society.
PC
"you know 85% of the diesel refined here is exported to europe"
in case you miss the question…
what 2 news sources? i see tankers (BIG ones) coming into us ports each day. they ALWAYS come in full, and leave empty. okay, okay, sometimes they leave partly empty, but are generally going to another port to finish the discharge.
what two sources? i m thinking mother earth, or other green mag. possibly you need better reference material.
Part of the reason oil companies aren’t reinvesting more into finding and collecting more supply is the pressure put on them by environmentalists. Oil companies are unable to build new refineries because of environmental pressure, nor can they drill where there is oil (eg Alaska, Rocky Mountains, etc.) I think if given the opportunity, oil companies would love to get more supply, but any easy to get supply is ‘protected’ by environmentalists. There is plenty of oil left in the ground, it’s just either difficult and costly to get at, or it’s been made off limits by misguided tree huggers.
And boycotting a specific oil company won’t work. I think there’s only something like 5 oil companies in the world that actually supply the oil to the various fuel companies. Indeed, Esso and Shell have an agreement where they share fuel if necessary. So, if you boycott Shell, Esso business will necessarily increase, and they’ll get some fuel from Shell anyway, so your idea, while creative, will ultimately have no effect.
Here you go:
Economics Prof. Pat Welch of St. Louis University says any boycott of ?bad guy? gasoline in favor or ?good guy? brands would have some unintended (and unhappy) results.
…Welch says the law of supply and demand is set in stone. ?To meet the sudden demand,? he says, ?the good guys would have to buy gasoline wholesale form the bad guys, who are suddenly stuck with unwanted gasoline.?
So motorists would end up…paying more for it, because they?d be buying it at fewer stations.
And yes, oil companies do buy and sell from one another. Mike Right of AAA Missouri says, ?If a company has a station that can be served more economically by a competitor?s refinery, they?ll do it.?
Right adds, ?In some cases, gasoline retailers have no refinery at all. Some convenience-store chains sell a lot of gasoline ? and buy it all form somebody else?s refinery.?*
Do you believe us yet? This whole thread is proof that some bad ideas never go away.
4,000,000 gallons of gasoline (of whatever octane)??????????????????????????????
You must have made just a minor mistake in your zeros. I’d like to see a 4,000,000 gallon tank truck. Are you sure you are over 13? Nasty, I know, but come on man. Those trucks hold about 8,500 gallons. Thanks for the laughter. It made be realize that the internet is not the forum for change, unless of course, it’s for reference. I give up, you will probably be paying $50 per gallon for gas when you are old enough to drive.
105,000 barrels. X 42 gallons. well, you do the math. see the screen name. i am actually a captain, and i drive a really big tanker. not the 18 wheel variety!!
It is port dependent on which refineries export. Check out Reuters or MSNBC. A simple search will find enough to keep you reading for awhile and me waiting for an apology.
So I guess the statement you made:
i AM the tank truck driver you are referring to on the previous page.
was also in error as to the word “TRUCK” or do you call your boat a truck?? You really are confusing me.
FYI, it’s Professor Patrica Welch, the “he” you refer to is a she.
Doesn’t bode well for who-ever you are quoting. It’s not hard to figure out who is a “he” or “she”. I’ve read some of her writings on the subject of gasoline demand elasticity. She’s well written. Suggest you might look up some of her papers, as I believe I remember one on “Inflation and the Destruction of Democracy”.
And no-name convenience store gasoline stations are not subject to anti-trust laws that branded gasoline stations are.
Believe you yes? Seems like a lot of the answers I received were honest and thoughtful, but most were about as funny as Click and Clack. I should have guessed. Anyway, I know most of you mean well. Just getting you to act is impossible…computer junkies I guess. You have convinced me that this is not the forum for what I want to accomplish. Positive change, not political rants on a computer screen.