They are in some places-Kevin
Texases …
you’d undo the safety improvements that have cut automotive road deaths by 80% since 1960, simply because you can’t do the same for motorcycles? Sounds like cutting off your nose (actually, killing a lot of folks) despite your face…
Well, I didn’t exactly say that. The improved car safety post 1960 is for a variety of reasons, including safer road designs such as multi-lane freeways, expressways, wider road shoulders, zip strips, guard rails, etc. Add to that lower speed limits. The cars are definitely safer post 1960. In 1960 most cars didn’t even have seatbelts. And there were important improvements beyond seatbelts made post 1960, like making the cars crunch up in safer ways in collisions. Shorter stopping distance and better control w/disc brakes helped. And the front air bags for the driver and front passengers is a big safety improvement.
But at some place the point of diminishing returns is reached. And I think we’re there. I just don’t see much safety improvement of 8 airbags compared to 6. And anti-lock brakes and stability control, I have no objetion to those being offered, but I don’t see requiring everyone to have them if they don’t want those options or simply can’t afford it.
Motorcyles? At some point cars cost too much for people to afford, which will force people who’d prefer to ride in cars to drive unsafe deferred maintenance old jalopies, or to drive motorcyles instead. And where’s the safety benefit to that?
@GeorgeSanJose The road/street fatality rate is now 1/16 of what it was in the 50s, nearly all attributable to safer cars, but some to road design as well. Driver skills have improved very little since the 50s. The accident rate is still the same, but the outcome of those accidents is less lethal.
Although we have safer roads, the fatality rates on superhighways in Europe is ONE HALF that of the US. This difference is directly attributable to better driving skills.
I do agree with you that we are getting to diminishing returns in car design; emphasizing better driving skills will have a better payoff.
@Docnick … I don’t doubt the driving experience is much safer (per mile driven) than in 1955. The questions is, where are we now in 2013 on the curve of improved safety vs added expense? Are we getting much bang for the buck w/8 airbags vs 6? I guess one interesting stat would be to know what the deaths/mile plot is since the time when most cars had 2 airbags, one for the driver, one for the front passenger, but didn’t have ESC, AL Brakes, and multiple airbags, say 1990 or so.
well, i was driving thru Wilmington , de yesterday it terribly un safe. if you are not on the top of your game its an accident waiting to happen. not as bad as boston during the big dig, but close. especially if you don t know the road. not too bad for me because i have enough sense to accept missing an exit rather than making it at all costs. but my partner did not think she could have handled it. people were taking enormous risks with every ones life. i saw one smart car there and the driver looked terrified. with good reason i d say. the highway widening in my hometown has had the same effect. accidents every day even after years. i have no solution just don t agree that the highways are safer.
@Rod_Knox, The DoD wants to close bases, and has for decades. Do you recall the Base Realignment and Closure Act (BRAC)? Our elected representatives could not agree on what to close and how to consolidate activities. The deadlock was so bad that in a momentary fit of sanity, Our Elected Representatives set up BRAC. The Pentagon created a plan to close bases and realign the activities. Congress was allowed to vote yes or no - no amendments allowed. DoD would like to terminate programs, too. But Congressional Representatives of those districts fight as hard as they can to thwart the effort.
Base closing is one of the chess games that congress and the DoD plays. They keep winning and we keep losing.
The public for the most part demands a plethora of safety features and clean air but seldom realize (initially) it all comes with a vastly larger cost; both in the MSRP and the repair costs later on.
Many cope with the MSRP or the monthly payment game that is played but never consider the repair end of the equation when buying that new car.
Regarding miltary spending, I couldn’t even start to guess at how much money has been tossed at the local AFB near me. They’ve expanded immensely and this was followed by downsizing with certain programs eliminated or moved elsewhere.
Every time a base is closed, someone else picks up the work. As far as the work goes, it is zero sum for DoD. The places that lose the base often have problems with unemployment. Most of the civilian employees are offered a transfer, but many don’t want to move. Military doesn’t count since they are expected to move. That was the case with Fort Monmouth, NJ. The work was transferred to Fort Meade, MD.
Would it be safer for a person to be driving a 15 year old rust bucket, or a new car with minimal safety features?
I recently test drove a 1993 pontiac lemans, it had 60k miles and was traded in because the old man couldn’t drive stick any longer, it was nice for what it was. I took it for a test drive and it had no options, not even a radio, I felt like I was gonna die in it, round here every third person drives a jacked up pickup and they tend to be horrible drivers. It was just so far back in time i couldn’t imagine to many people buying something like that in todays world of Ipods, low monthly payments and instant gratification.
I have seen the error of my ways and will drive a fuel efficient car and only drive the pickup when I need to get out in bad weather and a car won’t cut it.
When I bought the prius, I paid cash and the dealer tried to get me to finance it. I told them if they mentioned financing one more time I was walking. They acted offended.
@rod knox
for me to drive from Portland Maine to Portland Oregon why is a Mobius One unsaf If a school bus full of unbelted kids is safe how can a car with belts but no air bags be un-safe? And if a Honda Goldwing is safe e?
Second. federal safety standards are a bureaucratic farce. They make grand slam proclamations that appear to hold the manufacturers to some "public safety" standard on all manner of design details while turning a blind eye to motorcycles and school buses. -
Your absolutely right, there was a school bus that flipped on the interstate recently when clipped by an intoxicated driver. The only reason the bus had belts is it was a handicapped bus. The only reason no one got seriously injured or killed was because every person on that bus was belted in. It ignited a local argument on seatbelts in busses.
I have to agree with rick about financing. I ve never made a car payment. I would like a new car but until I can afford to pay cash for one I won t do it. when they were almost giving away kias a few years ago I almost did it, but my significant other is hard on cars an I did not think think the kia would hold up. I got her a 97 cougar that she has beat to heck, but its still going. so I think it was good decision
Seat belts in school buses are just impractical and school buses rarely have serious accidents. The cheapest cars for years have been either a Rio, Accent, or Chevy Aveo/Spark. In rare cases there were examples without ac and power windows/locks. But they didn’t sell many of them. Hardly any. Nibody wanted them. Those same cars with a few creature comforts have still often been available for about $12,000, and I’ve seen them advertised for $10,000. Thirty years ago my parents were shopping for a small, economy car, and even then most were coming in around $10,000, about what my parents paid or a Renault Alliance with ac (they lived in Sacramento), but no other power anything or fancy extras. It had all the power of a pedal car and was constantly breaking down. When it worked it was a comfy, roomy little car. I rode in it to West Virginia and back.
When you consider all the inflation since then it’s clear that the cheapest cars have both dropped in price (adjusted for inflation) and become better equipped, quicker, safer, and generally a lot nicer. I was fond of that Alliance but a Rio or Accent is a far better car. Too bad they lack the Renault’s trick seats that rolled on curved tracks so you could set the angle of the entire seat. I LOVED that feature. I wish someone would bring it back.
This car is made for my state with it’s poor roads, low median income and complete irreverence to style. Maniacs would fall all over themselves to buy one. The Subaru Brighten was a model specifically designed for Mainers. It was ugly and was featureless, just like the way many if us live .
School buses are slow(does that tell you anything?)-Kevin
@MarkM my son has a jeep Cherokee with a seat like that, I love it too. …and what you say about school buses may be true, but so many kids die when a bus does wreck…
School buses are restricted to 50 MPH by law in MD and are supposed to be driven conservatively. I have seen them on I-95 going faster than 50 with students on board, and I also have seen bus drivers turn on red at an intersection (no kids on board). But if they obey the law and drive uber-defensively as they should, there won’t be accidents that harm the occupants.
@GeorgeSanJose,
Nobody is going to opt for a motorcycle for practical financial reasons. A motorcycle costs more to operate (on a per mile basis) than most true econoboxes. Tires alone make a motorcycle cost prohibitive as a cost saver. Tires will cost you more than $200/pair (not including labor), and they will last you 8,000-10,000 miles if you take really good care of them. Since most motorcycles don’t have hydraulic lifters, you have to adjust the valves every 8,000 miles or so. Most people replace their helmets annually, and then there is other gear.
There is only one good reason to ride a motorcycle: they are fun. If you’re riding a motorcycle for any reason other than enjoyment, you shouldn’t be riding.
I’d love find a way to make the cost of riding a motorcycle reasonable. I’ve started doing my own maintenance more and more. I now remove my own wheels and take them to the shop to get new tires mounted to save money on labor, and if I ever get into a home with a garage, I will buy what I need to mount and balance my own tires. The only job I haven’t done myself is a valve adjustment, but I will do one soon. I’ve even considered buying a 250 cc bike to get 60-70 MPG, but most motorcycles that come with that small of an engine also come with spoked wheels. That means you’ll have to buy inner tubes every time you get new tires.
Whitey, the bulk of the federal employees, the ones on the “front lines” are decent people just trying to do their jobs. But to acquire a senior position in any federal agency requires a true politician. And therein lies the problem. Few politicians are actually focused on serving the people.
That’s surprising that motorcycles these days cost so much to operate @Whitey. Informative post. Thanks. I had a motorcycle years ago, a Suzuki dirt bike, and it didn’t cost much to operate . But it wouldn’t go much faster than 50 mph. It’s not comparable to today’s road bikes. I guess the current road bikes costing more per/mile to drive than a econobox automobile – well, they must be a lot more expensive to operate and maintain than I’d have ever guessed.
The reason though I brought up motorcyles, maybe that’s not the best comparison given what you say, but it is to illustrate there’s a compromise between safety and expense, and people have the freedom, the option, by choosing a motorcyle over a car, of opting for less safety if that’s what they want. Likewise- in my view – drivers of automobiles should have this option too – within reason, to opt for less safety features in their auto, in exhange for a reduced purchase and maintenance expense. To me, the level of safety achieved in cars of the mid-90’s in fine by me. Two airbags. No antilock brakes. No stability control.
I’m not saying auto’s shouldn’t have 8 airbags instead of 2, and that autos shouldn’t have antilock brakes and stability control. All I’m saying is that these should be options for the purchaser , no federal mandates.