# Auto Dealer Fraud? Liability? **URL:** \ **Category:** Maintenance/Repairs\ **Tags:** damage\ **Created:** [October 13, 2007, 12:47am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865 "2007-10-13T00:47:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ddelphi42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@ddelphi42](https://community.cartalk.com/u/ddelphi42)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2007, 2:01am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/21 "2007-10-14T02:01:55Z")
Well, that is a horse of a different color. The title SHOULD be “branded.” Exactly how is up to your state, but it should say “salvaged” or something like that. If the title is branded and the dealer sold it to you without disclosing that fact, then you definately have cause for action. Now, it IS possible that the title is not branded, and the dealer could make the argument that they did not know about it, but I think any reputable dealer would simply take the car back at this point. That is what we would do at our car lot. If you can prove the car was totaled, and the dealer knew about it, then as a car dealer myself, I say sue the sons-a-guns. It is people like that who give the rest of us a bad name. ---
**Author:** ![stylez36](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc8723/32.png) [@stylez36](https://community.cartalk.com/u/stylez36)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2007, 2:10am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/22 "2007-10-14T02:10:02Z")
well after the dealer giving me the go around and trying to muscle me into letting him fix it, i found the previous owner who said it was totaled and his insurance auctioned it off, the dealer of which won it because his name as well as the previous owners are on the title. so i am not going to let him buy it back, not at this point. he never offered to buy it back anyways ---
**Author:** ![refaller](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/refaller/32/35_2.png) [@refaller](https://community.cartalk.com/u/refaller)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/23 "2007-10-14T15:24:08Z")
It sure sounds like the title should be branded. However, if it is not, then there is a slim possibility that the dealer was not aware of the damages. If it was repaired before the auction it is at least possible (although I doubt it). You need to be able to show that the dealer absolutely knew that this car was damaged when they should it. This is why we have costumers sign a statement about the condition of their car and whether it was ever in an accident when we trade a car. If we find out they lied, then it doesn’t come back on us- or so the legal people think. ref ---
**Author:** ![stylez36](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc8723/32.png) [@stylez36](https://community.cartalk.com/u/stylez36)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2007, 3:34pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/24 "2007-10-14T15:34:44Z")
so you think if i have the previous owner sign some papers acknowledging that he signed it off knowing its serious condition and maybe get a copy of the accident report ill be good? ---
**Author:** ![windtalker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e47c2d/32.png) [@windtalker](https://community.cartalk.com/u/windtalker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 2:17am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/25 "2007-10-16T02:17:01Z")
i agree! what “snake oil” salesmen!?..contact the state attorney general’s office-car fraud division(ohio has one)seems there are enough preatators out there to warrant their own fraud division!! .tahe these THIEVES to court!..not just for your inconvience,but to protect their next potential victum!..these people have endangered your life,and anyone you might have been driving next to when ever this death trap decided to break in half!.. …also,stay in touch with the carfax people,as these hucksters have aparently discovered a way around one of the few protections we consumers have of knowing if a car has the kind of damage you describe…if carfax knows how they were circumvented,they might have a way to detect it next time!.. not only will you be doing the driving public a service by protecting them from shiesters like these guys,but you should come away with enough money to get a REAL car…new!! ---
**Author:** ![mr\_josh](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/mr_josh/32/3008_2.png) [@mr\_josh](https://community.cartalk.com/u/mr_josh)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 3:20am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/26 "2007-10-16T03:20:28Z")
Wow… is this a major dealer in your state? These folks need to be brought out in the open if they seriously had the chutzpah to try to pass off a totaled vehicle as being clean. ---
**Author:** ![ok4450](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ok4450](https://community.cartalk.com/u/ok4450)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 5:43am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/27 "2007-10-16T05:43:55Z")
It may not make one whit about what the dealer did or did do or know or when and if they knew it. The state law should be carefully examined on this issue and you may need to talk to an attorney. This car is 5 years old and has 5k miles on it. Defects Covered Only defects that impair your vehicle’s use or safety are covered. Defects are not covered if they: affect appearance only; are covered by the manufacturer’s express warranty and the dealer assures that the repairs were made; are caused by negligence, abuse, vandalism, or accidents unrelated to the defect; are caused by repair attempts made by someone other than the dealer, its agent, or the manufacturer; or are caused by substantial change made by you to the vehicle (such as installing a sunroof that was not part of the vehicle when you bought it). Warranty Length Age of Vehicle Warranty Period 3 years old or less: 90 days/3,750 miles, whichever comes first More than 3 and less than 6 years old: 60 days/2,500 miles, whichever comes first More than 6 years old: 30 days/1,250 miles. whichever comes first Warranty I’m no lawyer but from those blurbs about MA used car laws, and if I read it right, you may be out of luck according to that wording. Why not contact the state of MA AGs office, consumer protection, and ask them? ---
**Author:** ![DARTMAN69](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/dartman69/32/29_2.png) [@DARTMAN69](https://community.cartalk.com/u/DARTMAN69)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 6:34am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/28 "2007-10-16T06:34:33Z")
I did alittle research on this issue and this is what I have found. Here is a link to CarSmart published by the Massachusetts Consumer Coalition. [http://www.massconsumers.org/Carsmart2006/introduction.html](http://www.massconsumers.org/Carsmart2006/introduction.html) It says: “A car dealer must tell you if a used vehicle was a former demonstrator, taxicab, police car, lease or rental car, a total loss in an accident, or submerged in water, if the dealer has or should have that knowledge.” So if you can prove they had knowledge… ~Michael ---
**Author:** ![ok4450](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ok4450](https://community.cartalk.com/u/ok4450)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 6:54am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/29 "2007-10-16T06:54:58Z")
Dartman, just throwing something out there. It says IF the dealer has knowledge the car was a total loss. Since the title was not branded as Salvage this could mean that “total loss” is in the eyes of the beholder. Maybe the original owner only THOUGHT the car was wiped clean out and who knows what an insurance adjuster may or may not have said when figuring how much they’re going to cough up on it. Maybe the original owner just wanted to be out from under it and took the quick cash rather than mess with it and if the dealer was given a clean title then how would one prove the dealer knowingly had a total on his hands? I’m not familiar with MA titles and how it’s done at the dealers. In OK the title is not actually transferred, it’s only reassigned. It would seem to me that with stringent MA laws a title would be issued to the dealer to prevent future problems and if the state issued a “clean” title then how does one go against the dealer? The dealer may have looked at it and thought “Hey, that ain’t so bad. I can turn a few dollars on that one with a little fixin’”. Just wonderin’. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![MikeInNH](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a587f6/32.png) [@MikeInNH](https://community.cartalk.com/u/MikeInNH)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 1:55pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/30 "2007-10-16T13:55:35Z")
Before you take any LEGAL action…Go to the dealer. If you have any proof of what you’re saying bring it with you. DEMAND that they take the car back…and GIVE you a new car FREE…If not you’re to the state and have legal action taken against them. Tell them they have 1 hour to decide (give them enough time to contact their lawyer). Most states take this very seriously. I know a Nissan dealership in upstate NY that was shut down because of this. If they refuse …THEN get a lawyer and seek criminal and civil action against this sleeze outfit. ---
**Author:** ![TwinTurbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@TwinTurbo](https://community.cartalk.com/u/TwinTurbo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/31 "2007-10-16T14:40:14Z")
Why are you talking about suing them at this early juncture? If they refund all your money and other expenditures related to the car, there would be no need or advantage to suing them. You will never come out of this better off than getting all of your money back and the chances of getting less than all of it back are very real. Most small claims processes actually mandate a negotiation phase prior to formal litigation anyway. Just curious what you think you’ll gain by suing. ---
**Author:** ![GSragtop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7c8e57/32.png) [@GSragtop](https://community.cartalk.com/u/GSragtop)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 2:55pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/32 "2007-10-16T14:55:55Z")
What is the dealer saying in light of this new info?? Now that he knows that you know the car was totaled, what is he willing to do?? ---
**Author:** ![dedqgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@dedqgirl](https://community.cartalk.com/u/dedqgirl)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/33 "2007-10-16T18:28:43Z")
“if the dealer has or should have that knowledge” the dealer _should_ have that knowledge, and if it was totalled, you could get that info from the insurance company. and if the original owner’s signature was right next to the dealer’s signature, what’s the chance that the little tidbit of info about the total loss of the car wasn’t exchanged? it may not be solid, unrefutable proof, but the evidence is enough to convince just about any judge. ---
**Author:** ![TwinTurbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8baadc/32.png) [@TwinTurbo](https://community.cartalk.com/u/TwinTurbo)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/34 "2007-10-16T19:26:03Z")
AFAIK, he can’t take any criminal action, that’s the job of the legal authorities. You can go on a campaign but it’s not going to net you any money. What exactly would you propose he sue for other than the full value of the car and expenses? ---
**Author:** ![lucky1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f07891/32.png) [@lucky1](https://community.cartalk.com/u/lucky1)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 7:48pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/35 "2007-10-16T19:48:08Z")
The only person you can trust is yourself. Nobody else. The suggestion made here by many smart people is to get a pre purchase inspection. I think it cost $75-150 but its well worth it. Unless you ‘know’ cars you can be in for a big surprise. I know of a BMW dealership in Pittsburgh area (suburb probably) that was stripped of its franchise because of a fraud that was committed through that dealership. It may have been on a low level (mechanic or one bad apple) but they had to pay the price. I have a friend who liked to take a look at the cars available through craig’s list and he used to find huge mechanical and body repairs on cars that even the owners were sometimes not aware. So its literally a jungle out there. Be careful ! and good luck. ---
**Author:** ![stylez36](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc8723/32.png) [@stylez36](https://community.cartalk.com/u/stylez36)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 8:18pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/36 "2007-10-16T20:18:28Z")
i havent informed them of my new knowledge… ive contacted to an attorney and we are going to meet tomorrow, ill keep you guys posted. attorney said it sounds that i have a good case ---
**Author:** ![VDCdriver](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/vdcdriver/32/48514_2.png) [@VDCdriver](https://community.cartalk.com/u/VDCdriver)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/37 "2007-10-16T22:00:05Z")
They all tend to say that. Otherwise, why would you pay him/her a retainer? I would have confronted the dealership first, prior to putting myself in the position of having to pay an attorney. After all–it is possible that they might have offered a refund under these circumstances. But, when you meet with the attorney, the first thing to define is exactly what he/she believes your “damages” are. I hope that you realize that this is not a situation where you can claim payment for pain & suffering, or for “aggravation”, and you also are unlikely to receive any punitive damages. You are only likely to be able to collect a refund of the amount that you paid for the car, and the court might subtract an amount representing the service that you got from the car during the time that you possessed it. What are your real damages, according to the attorney? ---
**Author:** ![ok4450](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ok4450](https://community.cartalk.com/u/ok4450)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2007, 12:00am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/38 "2007-10-17T00:00:58Z")
I think a reasonable effort should be made beforehand to settle this before getting an attorney involved so I agree with VDCdriver completely. No doubt that tomorrow the attorney will smile, say yep we got 'em, and then hit the OP up for a 1000 dollar retainer. Of course an attorney wants an argument. The more arguing the better. It helps their bottom line. It might boil down to the statute of limitations which may be expired and the interpretation of some of those phrases in the law about what is or is not covered. ---
**Author:** ![DARTMAN69](https://sea1.discourse-cdn.com/cartalk/user_avatar/community.cartalk.com/dartman69/32/29_2.png) [@DARTMAN69](https://community.cartalk.com/u/DARTMAN69)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2007, 12:30am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/39 "2007-10-17T00:30:13Z")
OK4450: You bring up an interesting point about the extent of the damage. PART I. ADMINISTRATION OF THE GOVERNMENT TITLE XIV. PUBLIC WAYS AND WORKS CHAPTER 90D. MOTOR VEHICLE CERTIFICATES OF TITLE Chapter 90D: Section 20. Total loss salvage motor vehicles; surrender of certificate of title Section 20. (a) Whenever an insurer acquires ownership of a motor vehicle which it has determined to be a total loss salvage motor vehicle, it shall, within ten days from the date of acquisition, surrender the certificate of title to the registrar and shall apply for a salvage title. (b) Whenever an insurer makes a total loss settlement on a vehicle which it has determined to be a total loss salvage motor vehicle and the insured owner or claimant retains possession and ownership of the vehicle, the insurer shall notify the registrar of such retention on a form prescribed by the registrar and the owner shall, within ten days of such settlement, surrender the certificate of title to the registrar and shall apply for a salvage title. The insurer shall notify the insured owner or claimant of said owner?s or claimant?s responsibility to comply with the provisions of this section. © Whenever a motor vehicle which is not the subject of an insurance settlement is damaged to such an extent that the owner determines said vehicle to be a total loss salvage motor vehicle, the owner shall surrender the certificate of title to the registrar and shall promptly apply for a salvage title. (d) A total loss salvage motor vehicle shall not be titled under this chapter or registered for operation under chapter ninety unless the owner complies with the provisions of section twenty D. The owner of a total loss salvage motor vehicle shall not transfer such vehicle except in accordance with section twenty C. So if the owner thought it was a total and no insurance company was involved he should have applied for a salvage title. It also says if the dealer has or should have knowledge. The OP said "Carfax came up clean, and the dealer is offering to have the people who did the sloppy job repair it. " If the dealer knows who did the “sloppy job” they had knowledge of the damage. As far as the title I would be amazed if it does not say “RECONSTRUCTED”. MA law states: (b) Upon satisfactory inspection results, and receipt of all required documents and fees, the registrar shall issue a new certificate of title in the name of the owner which shall contain the notation ?reconstructed?, or if the vehicle was a stolen vehicle which was subsequently recovered in an undamaged condition, said certificate shall contain the notation ?recovered theft vehicle?. ~Michael ---
**Author:** ![jtsanders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c2a13f/32.png) [@jtsanders](https://community.cartalk.com/u/jtsanders)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2007, 12:43am UTC](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865/40 "2007-10-17T00:43:07Z")
That sounds like extortion. I’d just demand my money back and _imply_ that I would bad-mouth them. Let them make an offer that can’t be refused. [Previous page](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865.md?page=1) [Next page](https://community.cartalk.com/t/auto-dealer-fraud-liability/5865.md?page=3)