And they’re off. (I500)
@Bakech; A big part of your savings are because you went to the Volt from a V8 Lincoln. My wife drive a dodge Caravan around town and the gas savings would pay for a lease on a new Prius and some. BUT, when I want to do comparison shopping, I compare the price of the Prius to a Corolla or Matrix, ie similar sized car with good gas mileage.
There is a lot of math behind the cars, when & if gas prices go up, then things change. In my case, unless gas were to be over $5 per gallon, I would be better off with the smaller sedan than the fancy technology. I also factor in the extra cost of maintaining these cars. On most base model sedans, I could do the maintenance for at least the 1st 100K miles. I can not say the same for a Prius or Volt.
@Bakech You are certainly benefiting the environment by going from a heavy V8 car to a 4 cylinder compact. Even if all your electricity comes from coal, there will still be a significant reduction in overall CO2 generation of about 50%.
I can’t vouch for your economics, but if you can write off your leasing costs to your business it might make sense. I would certainly not buy a car like a Volt for long term use.
Re: Which produces more CO2, a gasoline car or an electric car?
I thought, on a per mile basis, a gasoline car produces more CO2. An electric car of similar acceleration capacity produces less CO2/per mile driven in other words. But some of the postings here seem to say the electric car produces more CO2. There must be some studies available on this. Anybody have a link?
Re: The (lack of) popularity of the Volt.
I’ve never driven one, but it’s not that surprising a car breaking new ground like the Volt will have some difficulties in the market. Didn’t Henry Ford say something to the effect that anything new doesn’t sell, at least at first?
Re: The economics of the Volt.
If you include the purchase price, the Volt’s economics on a per mile basis don’t compare that well vs a small econobox. That’s probably true. But that’s not the way to do the comparison, at least when looking at long term viability of a Volt or Volt-like automobile, which shows low per mile energy costs when driven around 30 miles per day. The initial purchase price of the Volt will come down with innovation and when/if the sales volume increases. That same thing happened with the Model T. Originally the Model T was quite expensive, much too expensive for an average family to own. But over a period of 10-20 years, economy of scale and innovation brough the price down considerably, making the car fairly affordable. If you looked at the economics of Model T ownership before the innovation and sales volume increase, when the car was expensive, economists at the time would have probably said it wasn’t a viable product.
@GeorgeSanJose
You didn’t mention the fact that the Model T was EXTREMELY outdated for much of the time it was in production.
So, for many of the years that it was “affordable” . . . it was also hopelessly outdated. Henry Ford got some significant criticism for keeping that car in production for as long as he did.
I meant no disrespect to any Model T fanatics reading this.
What good will it do me if the Volt is affordable and also outdated in 5-8 years time?
The Model T seemed to sell pretty at a good clip. I’m guessing the families that purchased their Model T – after all they had alternatives – they must have felt the affordability trumped the other considerations.
@GeorgeSanJose that wouldn’t fly nowadays.
Consumers are much more savvy today. People buying new cars today aren’t as likely to be happy with yesterday’s technology as people from years past.
Yes, I agree @db4690, you are spot on. Consumers today really insist on the modern conveniences. Henry Ford thinking wouldn’t work in this day and age. First off, I doubt a major automobile marketing department would even allow a person invoking Henry Ford style thinking into the building.
@GeorgeSanJose The amount of CO2 generated by a gasoline car vs and electric depends on what fuel is use to generate the electicity.
Briefly, a very efficient coal fired plant is 42% efficient and a good gasoline car is 30% or so. Therefore, if the power station was fired with gasoline, the electric car would generate 32/42=76% as much CO2, not counting the transmission losses of the power station.
However, the fuel in coal is nearly 100% carbon, and gasoline has much less carbon and more hydrogen, so the car generates much less carbon dioxide than the power station per kwhr or million btus. If your car runs on natural gas, it would generate only 50 % of the CO2 that a coal fired plant would, making an electric car a poor environmenral choice.
If we count the line losses of 5% from the power station, and electric car might come out slightly ahead of a gasoline powered one. However, if the power is generated by hydro or nuclear, the electric car is certainly a good environmental choice.
With respect to economics, the Volt is a heavy COMPACT CAR, although a very expensive one. The right comparison would be with a Mazda3 SkyActive or a direct injection Hyundai Elantra. Both cars cost about one half of a Volt and get really great mileage.
Of course, with an electric car, you have to add your electric bill increase to the gasoline consumed. At 16 cents per kwhr, electric power would cost 3414x0.$16=$546.16 per million BTU or in terms of gasoline, $31.13 per gallon!!! Since the electric power is 90% efficient in the car vs 30 for gasoline, the power would cost the equivalent of 30/90x31.13=$10.38 per gallon! This is the part neither GM or the electric car proponents talk about. @Bakech should tell us how much his electric bill has increased for the 17,000 miles he has driven the Volt.
I’m not against the Volt, but it should cost $22,000 or so and last as long as a gasoline powered car. Those days are some time into the future.
The lack of popularity of the Volt is simply its outrageous price for a Cruze-based vehicle that sells for twice as much. The public by and large is not dumb.
@Docnick, electricity at 16 cents/kwh is the same energy cost as gasoline at $10/gallon? Maybe I am misunderstanding you. You figures seem to be inconsistent w/what Consumer Reports says.
Here’s the cents/mile energy cost Consumer Reports says applies to various cars when electricity is priced at 11 cents/kwh.
Nissan Leaf: 3.5 cents/mile
Chevrolet Volt ( less than 35 mi EV): 3.8
Toyota Prius: 8.6
Honda Civic Hybrid: 9.5
Toyota Corolla: 11.9
Hyundai Elantra: 13.1
So it seems like even at 16 cents/kwh, the cost of energy/mile would still be considerably less for an electric car like the Volt. What is it that I’m not understanding?
It’s true that if you own an electric, you electricity bill will go up, but from what CR says, it seems like your gasoline bill would go down considerably more, so you’d come out ahead with more money in your pocket with an electric, when just comparing energy cost per mile.
We are comparing apples and oranges here, I think. The Leaf is a tiny town car and CR probably uses 100% electric efficiency and 25% gasoline efficiency. The other factor is that your electric bill is made upof 2 costs; fixed cost and engery used cost. Where I live the marginal (energy used ) cost is 8 cents per KWH, while the overall cost is 14.7 cents per KWH. So CR may have used the marginal cost in their calculations. CR also advises readers to switch to gas water heating, since it is about 1/4 the energy cost of electric water heaters.
I stand by my calcs, and and can’t justify an electric or plug in hybrid, no matter how I mssage the figures. But I would be pleased to see @Bakach’s electric bills.
My electric bill is on a tier system, probably like most others. At the base it is 13 cents/kWh then next ones are 16 and 27. An electric car would immediately move me one tier up if not more (the tiers are pretty tight. .
What’s missing from this discussion is that an electric car, or a PHV, can be powered by the sun, producing no greenhouse gases. Regardless of cost, that’s very important considering that the concentration of carbon dioxide reached a dangerous threshold just a few weeks ago: 400 ppm.
The climate science community reports that CO2 concentration has increased much faster than predicted in the past 20 years, and the rate of increase is accelerating. With that of course comes more global heating.
In a short time, the relative cost of fossil fueled vehicles will be of little consequence. Switching to sustainable energy sources with no greenhouse gas production will be essential. Even so, we are probably close to a tipping point where earth heating will become a positive feedback system, as melting ice will expose darker surfaces, absorbing a higher percentage of sunlight, further accelerating the warming.
Cars in the near future will weigh far far less due to advanced materials and structure, thus needing much less power, which in turn will reduce the size of batteries.
Only solar energy, in form of light, wind, or gravity induced falling water, is a sustainable source of energy, with an added benefit of producing no greenhouse gases.
@bakech, I’m wondering what kind of mileage you were getting with that LIncoln LS. If your mileage really sucked then that’s due to driving habits and/or lack of maintenance.
My son and daughter in law had a Lincoln LS (V-8) and it would tick off 27 MPG on the road fully loaded with the A/C on.
My Lincoln Mark (with a bigger V-8) routinely gets 27-28 MPG on the highway and on a road trip a few months back was getting 29.4.
@George
Wifey decided on Prius at the height of high gas prices in 2008 but got it delivered when gas was down considerably in late 2008. She paid top dollar which by Feb 2009, Toyota was giving $2000 rebates. She paid cash-no financing.
She was not concerned about the current cost or cost comparison between the possible alternatives. She was concerned in keeping future fuel costs manageable.
I’d be a good candidate for a Leaf or Volt, but I don’t see myself ever getting one, though.
Electricity is the ULTIMATE in flex fuel. It can be generated by more sources then any propulsion power.
THAT is an advantage of an EV. The other, is the potential for a maintenance free, generational lasting, motor and transmission. I fear, when EVs finally get the batteries we can afford, at a price that @doc points out as reasonable, car makers will plan in a self destruction process to encourage some form of revenue producing maintenance. IMHO, that’s why their coast is so high. Leasing seems to be the way to go as everyone wants the consumer on a cellphone, cable tv and heating bill mentality for car ownership. Extract your money monthly. No, I believe in ownership and now, the average guy can’t afford to own a Volt, unless he wants to give up golf !
A representative of Toyota told me they are long committed to cheaper Nichol Metal Hydride battery technology until they went to the plug in Prius. The were then not allowed by patent to use them as a sole source of propulsion in a larger size and had to use more expensive, lithium batteries, not by choice. That’s the crappola the public is facing. This, and range fear, even though there is a potential filling/ charging station at every power pole is the delema we face. The Volt is captivating but in the final analysis, substitutes petroleum for range fear and not a decent battery.
@dagosa I agree that the cost of all these new technologies will go down. In power tools and lawnmowers we now have affordable light weight high capacity batteries. Same as in laptops.
I agree that electric cars will have reduced maintenance, but manufacturers supply only part of the after market spares. The business is so large that a whole segment of industry is dedicated to after market spares and they are not the manufacturers. One car dealer service manager once told me that they only had the buyer as service customer until the warranty ran out at best. An owner seldom puts a new starter in a 6 year old car. A rebuilt unit is the norm.
In spite of all the “planned obsolescence” hype, that concept has gone down over the years. Carmakers are no longer run by the styling departments, safety and fuel standards now drive development and the long guarantees on all these have produced very long lasting cars.
The service manager at a Chrysler dealership once told me that any part for a model over 10 years old was considered “obsolete” and the dealer was not obliged to stock it, which policy this dealer followed. I hope that has changed by now. In any case there are lots of spares for an 11 year old Dodge Caravan to be had. The big problem is body parts, but they can often be had from a wrecking yard.
Planned obsolescence and stocking parts for only ten years seems to agree. I don’t think the idea has given way at all. Only through govt. mandates on safety and pollution related items have manufacturers grudgingly moved the bar ahead. If it wasn’t for these mandates, we would still be servicing carburators and changing exhaust parts every other oil fill. Make no mistake, making money is the primary reason for car companies to survive. If their profits were inversely proportional to their quality, as in fleet cars, we would see worse, not better cars. Mandates and smarter consumers drive quality car production, not the benevolent car companies.
Actually co2 emissions for an ev powered by coal is higher than a hybrid. Scientific American article showed that to be the case.