@docnick who wrote “We had the same questions about the Prius , but so far that car’s reliability and durability has been exemplary!”
For the most part this has been true - “exemplary” may be a bit of a stretch. My 2008 Prius had 20k miles when we bought it used in 2009; it now has over 120k. It is a long trip workhorse.
It has grown increasingly rattly and clunky over time…perhaps more than your average Japanese car with 100k miles…click click click, clunk clunk, and always been very noisy with the engine; the ride/suspension is quite poor, especially compared to the Volt (granted only 22k miles). The whine noise from the regen and hybrid system has also increased over time. Several of the very cheapy plastic parts or plastic clips/boltsfell off or decayed; most of these simaIat parts are metal or metal bolts on the VOlt; or a much thicker more durable plastic.
The Prius “broke down” only once, last year, where my wife has to creep to the dealer, at 105k miles the water pump blew out; in fact there was a recall on the pump. It is a engine-dependent belt-driven pump (unlike the electric motor driven coolant pump in the Volt) so those are prone to uneven bearing stress failure (happened in my '81 Civic when I over tightened the belt!) Other than that, over this past winter, the touch screen would blank out for 10-15 minutes at a time in cold weather; another known Prius issue. It could go at any time according to research, which would be an expensive repair. But the car can drive with out it (probably not pass inspection though)
So that’s the 120k miles report on an '08 Prius, and like I said, besides being quite a bit of clunker, the engine and hybrid system are going along AOK, still delivering a fairly consistent 47 mpg; you’ll have to wait 4-5 more years for similar report on the Volt!
MikeInNH who wrote re Civic and Volt “their both boring cars”
Really, they both are?
First, put the Volt in Sport mode (+L if you like the feel of “engine braking” like a BMW, except in this case it’s regen!). Does a Civic even have a Sport mode or an L? According to my co-worker who juts bought a '13 Civic, it only has an Eco mode, which makes is EVEN MORE sluggish but he gets 38 mpg! And the L is so only you can climb Mt. Washington.
Next at a light, floor it and you’ll hit 50 quickly, silently, and maneuver like a slot car. Yet even more things the Civic can’t do.
Next take a left turn at ~30 mph and note low center of gravity and how the only sound you hear are the tires gripping the road (but not squealing). Civic - nope.
Do all that, with real-time efficiency feedback from two 7-inch color screens on how you are STILL getting 3 to 4 times more miles per dollar than the Civic, and come back and tell me again how “their both boring cars”.
Good for the few who can travel 40 miles per day…and have the up from resources to come up with $40k with the good faith expectation it will be cost effective. Personally, a Miata and a used Pick up would serve me much better ! And really, @mikeinnh is absolutely right.
You need to drive a good rwd sports car then jump back into your Volt . I’m sure it’s an excellent handler with the power off…but being a fwd car, it still suffers from some under steer. That can never be hidden and driving mountain roads with the power on going up hills separates the slalom times from the real world generally boring handlers.
Next at a light, floor it and you'll hit 50 quickly, silently, and maneuver like a slot car. Yet even more things the Civic can't do.
So you buy a Volt to go super fast…and deplete it’s battery is 20miles…and thus get about 30mpg…And then in the same breath you say the Volt will get 3 times the gas mileage…WELL NOT IF YOU KEEP FLOORING IT!!!
As I said…and even showed you results of real world driving…The Volt was averaging LESS then 40mpg…40 miles commute may be common where you live. I know very few people who have a 40 mile commute. Mine is more then 40 miles ONE WAY.
Now which do you think is probably a LOT more "fun" to drive, a Chevy Volt or a Honda Civic?
The Civic is so boring that I about fell asleep during the test drive. The Volt is a Chevy; I wouldn’t trust Chevy as far as I could throw their vehicles.
One thing that sales of Volts are competing against while being OUTRAGIUOSLY expensive is not just comparable new cars in cost of ownership, it’s all the USED cars out there. Back in 2005, I got a great deal on a 2002 Chevy Prism which had 17 k miles, handled and drove very decently, and with the standard trans mission, seldom got less then 38 mpg highway when driven sanely. It was $7500 back then, but similarly good deals can be had on very eonomical transportation now. With once every 100k tune ups and excellent reliability, it would be a long time toay for a new only $40 k Volt to approach the payback. So, used cars and great deals on them mean a much tougher market. When you commit $40 k minus rebate to a car, you leave very little for that second car for a middle lass buyer with kids and mortgages. Brag all you want about Volts. They are still too high priced to be worthwhile to any but those with the discretionary funds and little need for any specialized transportation.
That’s why a huge chunk of that group that does commute in the 40 mile range, ain’t buying it. The middle class is shrinking along with their buying power and willingness to buy Volts.
@MikeInNH - And keep being ridiculous. Of course I’m not talking about “flooring it” constantly in the Volt, I’m talking about the things the Volt can do that a Civic-class vehicle simply can’t. Flooring it a few times over a 35 mile trip only results in a couple miles lost range, I know because I’ve done it. And a Civic would suffer an equal or worse fate with its mpg for the same transgressions (with lackluster results) which is why the Volt stays 3 to 4 times ahead in efficiency regardless, all else being equal.
And you are struggling with basic math on the Volt mpg. Its MPGe rating of 98 is based on the EPA range of 38 miles. So if you somehow did deplete the battery in 20 miles, that would still be 49 MPGe. Grab a calculator.
Since I’m hunkered down at ~50 estimated range (the 2012 wont indicate any higher; updated for 2013) my MPGe now is actually at least 129, my average in summer. It shows in my range remaining on trips, and ultimately in my low electric bill. And for the most part I don’t drive like Granny. I’m usually 5-10 miles over the speed limit.
And so then ask yourself this question, if I’m getting over 30 MPGe higher than the EPA rating, then that’s a whopping 32% higher. How many gas vehicles can you get 32% higher than EPA mpg, consistently? You’d have to get 65 mpg average in a Prius, or 46 in that now infamous Civic (trying to help you out there Kevin:) So it just aint gonna happen, driving efficiently in an electric gives greater gains, just as a cautionary tale, blasting the heat in winter gives greater losses. But still less overally energy wasted than with gas.
@dagosa who wrote “You need to drive a good rwd sports car then jump in to your Volt”
Yes, in fact…You may be right. How about a Camaro? I’ve never driven a Camaro, no frame of reference…
Ok, listen up dagosa, Mike, Kevin, and anyone else who has never driven a Volt and is skeptical of its performance. I have a challenge for you, if you are up for it.
I will go test drive a Camaro (base V6 auto) in the next week or so, if…you agree to test drive a Volt (must be fully charged, in Sport Mode…the Camaro’s always in Sport Mode, right?) in the same time frame.
Then we come back here a week later and share our experiences on this thread.
It may be a humbling experience for me and I’ll freely admit it if so - I’m not afraid of the possibility of having my illusions shattered.
FR-S Scion of BRZ from Subaru or Mazda Miata would be better or Mustang.
The first three as well as the Honda, are more dedicated handling machines. You also need to drive one with less power then the Camaro or Mustang so the comparison won’t be swayed by that big difference. Rwd cars power through curves if done correctly, fwd cars must be de powered to prevent plowing. if you drive a rwd car like a fwd, you will realize much less difference. You will continue to slow down on corners…and think there is little difference in rwd sedans.
We took turns driving a friends 2011 Miata two days ago and spent two hours wringing it out over mountain roads taking curves at 65 to 70 mph. There are NO fwd cars made that will do what we did…NONE. The industry does not even make a fwd sports car…it’s impossible. BTW, Why are we so hung up on GMs ? Getting a commission ?;=)
But, regardless, do the Camaro. If you aren’t impressed by it’s superior over all handling over a Fwd Volt; NO ONE SHOULD EVER NEED OR WANT TO BUY A CAMARO !
And you are struggling with basic math on the Volt mpg. Its MPGe rating of 98 is based on the EPA range of 38 miles.
I suggest you go back and re-read ALL the posts…
REAL WORLD numbers of people actually driving it are NOT getting 98mpg…People who are driving it in REAL WORLD situations are driving it MORE then miles…and they are getting LESS mileage then a Honda Civic…I’m glad you live so close to work you can drive less then 40 miles…I only very few people who have less then a 40 mile commute…Glad you do…
Real world numbers…the volt is TOO EXPENSIVE for most people…now if you want me to go over the simple 7th grade math for you I will…But I don’t think you’re at that level.
AA,I love the concept of the Volt(see a few of them around Charlottesville(more affluent people there-also a lot of Civics and I mean quite a few) Ican get a Civic so much cheaper then A Volt and thats the way it has to be for me right now(we have two late model civics and the mileage runs in the mid thirties and these things are quick also,we’ve had several tens of thousands of trouble free miles out of these cars and still bought them for probaly less then a new Volt,the only thing I really dont like about those cars is the road noise and lack of comfort on a trip(I have a back thats pretty bad(fusion surgery,etc) I’m sure the Volt is much more comfortable-think the Cruze is a swell looking auto,if I wanted to go for comfort,then Chevy or Buick would be my choice,How does the Volt do in the snow? is there enough weight on the drive wheels to keep from burning rubber?(a problem with some electrics-instant torque and all) the Civics do fair in light snow,but not as good as a Taurus with snow tires-Kevin
@MikeInNH who wrote “I suggest you go back and re-read ALL the posts…People who are driving it in REAL WORLD situations are driving it MORE then miles…and they are getting LESS mileage then a Honda Civic”
Mile, that is simply not true, I have read all the posts, your comment is a smoke screen- either lying or just don’t understand the data. Show me your data - I’ve shown you mine, I’ll do it again
On volt stats dot net there are over 1,700 Volts being tracked. Only 6 of them have mpg of less than 38 mpg.…and all except one of those have EV mile percentages in the low single digits (one is 11% EV!) They are anomalies and should never drive EV; or are dealer cars or fleet cars with free gas cards so don’t plug in and probably drive poorly because they don’t care. Six, out of 1700. So less than 0.4% of Volts are getting less “combined” mpg than a best case Civic mpg on the highway only.
And the average mpg on volt stats dot net as of 7-Jun-13: 171 mpg
Mine as of today is 981 mpg over 22k miles, and as I just calculated again ~127 MPGe including my ~700 gas miles.
Ok, so does this mean you are in for the challenge?
BTW, I chose a Camaro because it has some basic similarities to a Volt:
Same Curb wieight (both ~3700 lbs.)
Almost Same Torque (Volt 373 vs Camaro 278)
Almost same Wheelbase (Volt 105 vs Camaro 101)
And of course they are both 4-seaters made by Chevy.
But that’'s where the similarities end.
The Camaro is RWD, has 323 hp (vs Volt’s 149), and a more ideal weight distribution of 52/48 (vs Volt’s 61/39), and certainly sportier suspension and tires.
So make no doubt, I expect the Camaro to kick the Volt’s bum, the question is by how much? Greater that the Volt kicks the bum of its often mis-compared econo-boxes like the Civic? Which handle and accelerate more similarly, Civic and Volt, or Volt and Camaro?
To eliminate the RWD aspect, maybe like an Acura sports car is a better choice, but I’ll start here.
OK, last call, who is in and who is out?
Mile, that is simply not true, I have read all the posts, your comment is a smoke screen- either lying or just don't understand the data. Show me your data - I've shown you mine, I'll do it again
I did once already…but I’ll do it again is you insist.
If you look at the numbers posted…the age group that can AFFORD a $30k+ vehicle drives about 15k miles a year…that’s a LOT MORE then 40 miles a day. Which means the electric motor runs out and now you have to run on the gas engine which gets 35mpg.
If your commute is less then 40 miles day…GREAT…If you mileage is close to the real world numbers of 15-20k miles/year then the Civic hybrid is by far the better choice. Better overall gas mileage…and costs about $10k LESS.
I can’t figure out if you are not honest or just really ignorant. Here’s the actual quote from your 2nd link, where on a 123-mile highway and mountain road trip, a partially charged Volt with only 13 miles range left was drained, then partially recharged with gasoline while driving, then driven in EV mode at 75-80 mph until depleted again to hybrid mode. All while blasting the AC. 44 mpg in that scenario, probably equals or beats any Prius…and the Volt wasn’t even half charged at the start.
"I climbed into a Volt in Tehachapi, California, for a drive back to Los Angeles. The car had been used during the day, and the instruments showed the battery had 13 miles of charge left. My route included a 900-foot climb almost immediately, and the day was hot, so I had the air-conditioning on. The IC engine fired after 10.9 miles.
Once on freeway I initially set the cruise control at 70 mph. Just before Palmdale, I ran the car in mountain mode, increasing the speed of the IC engine to add extra charge in the battery before the climb into the mountains. I switched mountain mode off at the base of the hills, and then ran with the traffic – 75-80 mph – pretty much all the way back home to L.A. I used 2.8 gallons of gas for the 123.2 mile trip – an average of 44 mpg."
And Mike, those are not real world data, those are artificial driving loop tests to cars’ long range mpg; they inherently favor an ICE over any EV or EREV.
Factual, not biased. Real world data from me and 1,700 Volts against a few selective tests, all long trips, some without the Volt even charged up. You are so obviously biased it is laughable.