You do have an intermittent problem, they are the most difficult to solve. But intermittent eventually become a steady issue and your vehicle is headed in that direction. I know that doesn’t sound like good news but it is. It would be nice if it got there sooner rather than later.
Every symptom you are having makes me think that you have a badly leaking fuel injector, except that you don’t smell any gas. You would also have noticed a sudden drop in fuel efficiency. You might have to remove the air filter element to smell the gas though as the fuel would be in the manifold.
One more trick to try next time it won’t start. Instead of using the either, just turn the key off, put the pedal to the floor and hold it there. After 30 seconds, hit the starter without lifting your foot off the gas. If it starts right up, that is another indication of a leaking injector or bad fuel pressure regulator.
Another test you can also do, when it fails to start, turn the key between off and run every two seconds for about three cycles and then hit start and see if it starts right up. That would be another indication of a loss of fuel pressure while the system is off.
So we’ve now established that the no-start is due to no/low fuel pressure at the rail
Now we need to determine WHY that is the case
Could be a bad fuel pump, could even be a sensor, which is causing the pump to not be energized
If the Subaru guys can’t figure it out, based on your latest information, then they really aren’t that smart
But I already alluded to that
BTW . . . all those warning lights were most likely on because your engine had stalled, and the ignition is in position 2. In position 2, those lights are supposed to be lit, along with some others
I concur w/db above, the dash warning lights lit like that are normal when the engine stalls. i.e. the “brake” light isn’t diagnostic. You can verify this yourself by turning the key from off to on but not starting the engine (which should be easy to do … lol) . You’ll notice a bevy of dash light on. That’s done so the driver can verify the warning light bulbs are working and not burned out. Otherwise a warning condition could occur, but the dash light invisible, which might result in an unsafe condition or severe engine damage since the driver would be unaware of something like no brakes or no oil pressure.
You’ve done a great job there OP of doing a bit of diagnosis yourself. Your tests are definitely consistent with a fuel-pressure or fuel delivery problem.
What could cause this? … hmmm
fuel pump relay on the fritz. If you had a VW or Honda, I’d guess this is it. But not so much with Subie from reports there.
evap problem … fuel can’t flow from the tank to the engine if a vapor lock condition occurs in the space above the gas tank. Car designers go to eleaborate designs to insure this doesn’t happen, but sometimes some evap gadget or another will fail. You might try starting the engine w/the gas cap loosened, see if that makes any difference. Note this might turn on the check engine light b/c it doesn’t want you to run the engine with the gas cap loose.
fuel filter on the fritz. Would be an unusual thing to occur at 35K, unless you got a tank of grit filled gasoline somewhere. Did you purchase gas at a weird station (like one in a small town you were visiting that sells very little gas in a typical week) just before this started to happen?
injector(s) … seems unlikely for all of them to go bad tho
and, it could still be an ignition problem, and just a coincidence that it fixed itself while you sprayed starter fluid
The good news, as mentioned above by Nevada, I think this problem is close to being solved. If the subie dealership can’t fix it, you local inde shop probably can. If you want to use the subie dealership and want it fixed come hell or high water, your best bet is to rent a car and just park your car there and drive the rental. Tell them until it is proved fixed once and for all, keep the car there at the dealership and not bother you. Then you can try to get the manufacturer to reimburse you for the rental car cost. Hard to say if they will, but no harm asking.
BTW, while I understand your frustration with this problem, suggest not to tell the shop what to test or otherwise how to fix your car; just tell them the symptoms and what you’ve done to try to figure it out. They’re supposed to be the professional auto mechanics, not you. If they can’t diagnose & fix it themselves given your info, take it another shop. Best of luck.
I’m beginning to believe that today’s techs think the OBDII system is there to help them fix the car. It isn’t. It’s purpose if to monitor the systems necessary to ensure compliance with federal emissions and safety mandates. There are countless things that can fail on cars that aren’t necessary to ensure compliance with the specifics of the mandates, and for those it’s necessary to really understand how the systems work and what they do. I’m starting to think that the basic science, the basic physics behind the systems, is lacking from the educational programs.
There are some great techs out there… I met one just yesterday. But far too many suffer the limitations described by db.
Unfortunately, this comment is no help to the OP. To that problem I have nothing to add to the great posts that have already been offered. It’s only a general comment on my opinion of the current state of the repair industry as it relates to dealer shops.
Not saying that a Kubota is the same as a Subaru but the ailments may be similar. My tractor shut of the other day when I engaged the transmission. It was cold, and the safety shut off switch under the seat did not engage properly to keep the motor running.
The temperature and stiffness of the seat suspension had a lot to do with it, especially if the switch comes out of alignment. That’s a physical problem that may not show up if the conditions aren’t matched perfectly in a car that might not allow the computer to pick it up.
If there are shut off switches at the brake, transmission or elsewhere, that would be my first guess. I doubt it would show up on a computer scan if the switch was working at the time.
After six weeks of no solution from the Subaru service department, and three flatbed pick-ups and deliveries to the dealership service department, and plenty of research on Subaru forums, I did this: I took the car to the service department and told them not to put the car on the diagnostic computer, which obviously was not seeing the problem, but to turn the car over to their oldest mechanic and have him trouble-shoot each of the following: 1. crank position sensor. 2. relays. 3. alternator and 4. fuel pump. I suggested the oldest mechanic because I figured he would be most suited to making the best diagnosis unassisted by a disgnostic computer. IT WORKED! They called me the next day and said it was the crank position sensor. They fixed it and I could come pick up my car. Yay – my wife and I were able to go on our postponed vacation. The car has been starting and running fine, with only one minor annoyance:
There is a high pitched intermittent whine from within the engine compartment when idling. A very high pitched scream of metal on metal. It sounds like something round and slightly eccentric rubbing against a housing. Metal is not invulnerable, so I know this is not good. I don’t want to take the car back to the same service department, so I’m going to take it to the Subaru service in the next town, but first I wondered if anyone can give me an opinion of what this mechanical squeal could be, and if it is serious.
I am starting to have the same issue with my 2010 Subaru Legacy with 132k miles on it. I haven’t had it sputter out or anything yet, but I’ve had it not start randomly with no pattern. It turns and cranks, but won’t actually ignite. Is that what happened to you How is your car holding up after the repair?
When Subaru Service was able to fix my Outback, after five weeks of them
not being able to isolate the problem with their diagnostic computer, they
said it was the crank position sensor. The car has been starting with no
problem since their fixing the sensor, but now there is a very high pitched
scream of metal on metal whenever the engine is running. When I asked the
guy in service what it was, he shrugged. I hope it’s not doing any damage,
but it can’t be good. Next time I go to a Subaru service center, it will be
the one in the next town, which has a very good reputation.
I think the fundamental problem is that the Subarus have been so reliable
that when something goes wrong they freak out and don’t know what to do.
And now, of course, they rely 100% on their diagnostic computer to tell
them what’s wrong. I asked them to assign my car to their oldest mechanic,
a guy with eyes and ears and common sense, and after doing a bunch of
research on forums, I gave them a list of five things I wanted them to look
at specifically, and not to rely on the diagnostic computer, which was
clearly blind to the problem. One of the five was the crank position
sensor. We are not alone with this issue. Subaru has to figure out what’s
wrong. I have a good friend with a brand new Outback, and hers was also
randomly not starting. They told her that she was not driving it enough.
Really.
All best, Ken Delmar
Cranks ok but doesn’t pop and start, very likely either a spark or fuel problem @md_nelson . Checking for spark at the spark plugs is a good place to start. Spraying a little starter fluid into the intake air path during cranking can provide a clue also. OP Ken D above’s problem apparently was a defective crank position sensor. That’s a pretty common reason for cranks but won’t start. Not just on Subies, but in general. Those crank sensors can be hard to diagnose as when they fail they often don’t throw a code. It may be possible in certain failure modes to continue to get spark at the spark plug, but there’s no gas being injected b/c the engine computer thinks the engine isn’t turning. I’d guess however that an experienced Subie tech has a way to test that sensor’s output when the engine is cranking.
Good for you for keeping the techs on the straight and narrow getting your Subie diagnoses & fixed OP. An experienced tech pays off in more ways than one I guess. Did you ask the experienced tech what the sound was? It seems unusual for a trained mechanic to just shrug. He might not know, or not have time to speculate right then, but you’d think he’d at least suggest you schedule another appointment. It’s very difficult to diagnose noises via the internet as you might expect. Doing some experiments to see if the sound changes can help provide some clues. Like if there’s AC involvement, coasting vs in gear, how does the sound change with increasing engine rpm, increasing speed, etc. A length of garden hose can be used as a stethoscope to narrow down the location.
Any competent dealer should have been able to diagnose this problem. The fact that they couldn’t speaks only to their really poor competence. having them call another dealer is no help nor a guarantee of success.
It seems like it would be pretty easy for a shop to do a quick check of the basic operation of the crank sensor by using a scan tool to measure the engine rpm during cranking. If the engine seems to be cranking normally, but measures outside the normal cranking rpm range of 100 to 500 rpm, good chance there’s a problem with the crank sensor function. Perhaps @devduttsheth_144252 's vehicle had a weird failure mode.
It is a matter of compensation, technicians don’t want to spend 4 hours monitoring an engine waiting for a hick-up, replacing a crankshaft position sensor will only pay 1.5 hours of labor. If no problem is found in a reasonable amount of time the vehicle might be returned to the customer until the customer can demonstrate the problem, until then the tech moves on to the next vehicle.
Do the techs ever say to the customer with an intermittent problem: "If you like I’ll keep the car here and monitor it continuously until it fails. However, the fee for that service is $x per hour. If you are willing to pre-pay for 16 hours (2 days) of this monitoring service, please step inside the reception area to sign the paperwork and make the pre-payment. "
